The Breaststroke Lane

[sjstuart]

Allen: thanks for the tip. You should have seen my previous head position... I have lowered it quite a bit, but I do need to work on getting even more streamlined. I'll eagerly await any more pearls of wisdom.

Stud: I definitely surfaced too fast. Not just in my 100 start, but I came up too flat off of all of my walls. Maybe practicing in a 3-foot pool has something to do with that. I certainly didn't mean to criticize your pullouts -- a 5-stroke first lap is something I can aspire to. More underwater is definitely good. Especially off the start where I still have some oxygen. I probably just need to slow down a little off the start.

Glider: My last 50 was indeed painful, but not as bad as some that I have swum. I actually thought I had paced it well, until I saw my splits. Your splits were very well done. Speeding up on the last 50 gives me something to shoot for. I am definitely better the longer the race. You're right that I don't do a whole lot of speedwork. But I'm also not a fast-twitch kind of guy. Sprints are definitely my weak point, in every stroke.

[SwimStud]

Stud: I definitely surfaced too fast. Not just in my 100 start, but I came up too flat off of all of my walls. Maybe practicing in a 3-foot pool has something to do with that. I certainly didn't mean to criticize your pullouts -- a 5-stroke first lap is something I can aspire to. More underwater is definitely good. Especially off the start where I still have some oxygen. I probably just need to slow down a little off the start.

Steve, I have no issue with your observations...and criticisms you gave were positive. I died a magnificent death there in Atlanta after the 60yard mark...I just thought if you can go longer underwater with your speed on the surface you'll drop a second or 2 on your 50. Yeah 3 ft pools are bad for deep pushoffs but get good at being 1 inch off the bottom on your streamline and going as far as you can.

On the positive side between us we have a kick ass Breaststroke!

[Allen Stark]

Okay, here's my 200 BR video from Nationals. Same heat as SwimStud, but across the pool. I'll post the 50 and 100 also. Any feedback is welcome.

Stuff I know about: the DQ for a false start in the 200 is a fair call, although I had no idea I was leaning. I surfaced a little too quickly in all of my breakouts. My 200 wasn't very well paced. My stroke rate faded from ~7 to ~9 too.

Stuff I don't know about: head position? turnover? any other technique advice, if you can see anything from above the water surface.

200: YouTube- Steve's 200 Breaststroke 10-05-23
(lane 7, bright green cap. Splits :31.61, :36.27, :36.85, :38.36)

100: YouTube- Steve 100 BR
(lane 2, bright green cap, splits :30.73, :34.81)

50: YouTube- Steve 50 BR
(lane 2, dark green cap, :29.84)

The 100 was pretty good at showing your stroke.You are bringing your arms too far back in my opinion and that delays your recovery,keeping you in a less than desirably unstreamlined position too long.Try to keep your elbows in front of your shoulders and see how that works for you.

[sjstuart]

Thanks for the advice, Allen.

I played around some with shortening my stroke some today in practice, and have periodically tinkered with that before upon hearing similar advice. I have to say, it feels totally wrong. It feels as though I'm still getting a significant amount of propulsion when my elbows pass my shoulders. Although I do understand the logic of getting back to streamline faster. Maybe if I manage to improve my head position in streamline, that'll make it even more worthwhile.

What I really need to do is some timed efforts with different stroke styles / turnovers.

[Allen Stark]

I just discovered what seems like a good drill to avoid dead spots in your recovery.With fins on flutter kick fast(I did this with a snorkel,but I suppose you could do it underwater or with regular breathing.Doing it with a snorkel lets me focus more on just my arms.Same for doing flutter kick instead of dolphin,with dolphin I was trying to make the timing work instead of just focusing on the arms.)Then start doing slow breaststroke pulls.If you hesitate in the recovery or don't get your elbows narrow you really notice the drag.You could do faster pulls but I found I could feel the water resistance better doing slow pulls.

[swimdoc]

A shoulder injury has me wondering, reluctantly, into this lane. I once was a NCAA qualifier IM'er, with breast being my worst stroke. I've never known quite what to do with my pull, but now at age 52 with my shoulder problematic, I have time to figure this stroke out.

I have very wide shoulders and very long arms (finger tips to the knees), and all the good breastrokers I come across have much shorter, and powerful arms. It dawned on me that part of my problem may be that my catch is way to wide and my insweep much to prolonged because of my monkey-like upper extremities. Do any of you experts know of long-armed breastrokers and how they accommodate their arms to their pull?

[ElaineK]

Welcome to our world! Nice to have you join us. I can't help you; I just wanted to welcome you. But, if anybody can help you, check out the guy who posted right before you: Allen Stark. He's the man! He has given me such great advice on this thread and even watched my events at Nationals, giving poolside advice, as soon as I got out.

Good luck to you!

[swimdoc]

ElaineK was nice enough to refer me to you for trying to figure a problem (probably one of many) I have with the breastroke pull component.

I have broad shoulders and monkey-length arms (finger tips to the knees), and all the good breastrokers I come across have much shorter arms. When I mimic what I see the shorter-armed (i.e., normal) people do their pull, I get the feeling that part of my problem may be that my catch is way to wide and my insweep much to prolonged because of my long arms.

I've got good feel, catch etc. with the other strokes, but the more I tinker with my breastroke pull, the less I understand it.

Any suggestions? (Anyone?)

[Peter Cruise]

Bruce- you may well have too wide a pull (hint- post us a video of current stroke) and rather than tinker per se, you need to play with the feel of your armstroke esp palms and inside of forearms before you settle on whats right for you. Sculling drills, underwater breastroke are very good for this. Yes you may end up narrowing your pull, but far more people pull too far back before recovery, for which it would be very good for a set of eyes on deck to watch you for that.
Once you have nailed your armstroke pattern then likely there will be some issues of timing between arms & legs...all can be corrected!

[Allen Stark]

A shoulder injury has me wondering, reluctantly, into this lane. I once was a NCAA qualifier IM'er, with breast being my worst stroke. I've never known quite what to do with my pull, but now at age 52 with my shoulder problematic, I have time to figure this stroke out.

I have very wide shoulders and very long arms (finger tips to the knees), and all the good breastrokers I come across have much shorter, and powerful arms. It dawned on me that part of my problem may be that my catch is way to wide and my insweep much to prolonged because of my monkey-like upper extremities. Do any of you experts know of long-armed breastrokers and how they accommodate their arms to their pull?

If you could get a video I'd have a better idea of suggestions.Assuming your idea is right you might try narrowing your pull to just outside your shoulders and see if that is better.On the other hand if your pull is much better than your kick you may want to stay with the wide pull and work on better timing(if it doesn't hurt your shoulder).Since you are 52 I am assuming you learned head up BR.Have you learned head down,undulating BR(the so called "wave".)If not you may find BR easier given your IM background.Please post video's if you can.

[swimdoc]

Thanks, Peter and Allen. My shoulder is a few weeks away from a video performance, but I'll send that along.

I did learn the "old style" of BR, and I get the undulation part of the "wave," which feels great if I do breast pull and fly kick with fins.

I'm really just not sure what I'm supposed to feel on the insweep. I can't figure out if you real breastrokers feel as if you are squeezing the water between your forearms and that naturally pops up the torso, if you feel like the catch sort of locks a spot in the water from which you're able to slide your hips up to the cobra coil position as the arms quickly recover, if the acceleration through the insweep is the real key to it all, or if it's none of these.

I don't really ever feel much with my forearms (just my hands), even if I do a fist drill. Maybe the lack of feel is because I have extremely long, relatively thin forearms (compared to some of the forearms I see on breastrokers).

Anyway, I won't waste more of your time until I produce the video. It really looks like it would be fun to swim it right (and fast). I'm very envious.

Thanks!

[Jimbosback]

Jim: You are doing real good at 6 strokes and 9 kicks is great (I do mostly 8 but can stretch it to 7 if I really glide between kicks).

What you need to look at is the relationship between stroke count and time for a 50. There will be a point where you don't go any faster adding more strokes, so working that stroke count down while maintaining that same pace is the goal. Also take into account your "perceived effort" rating on a scale from 1 to 10 along with heart rate. All of these factors give you feedback on stroke efficiency.

I do most of my training alone, so these concepts play a big part of how I work on my stroke efficiency.

Tapered, shaved and wearing my 2000 "farmer john" type short body suit, I do 6 x 50 on a minute and have done a pullout, 2 strokes, turn, pullout, 2 strokes and finish in about 33 seconds from a push. That's when I know my stroke is really efficient. Mid season I'm usually doing 4 strokes at about 38 seconds for the same set. It is real easy to tell when things are really working.

Anyway, good luck.

Thanks for the advice. I also train alone.

I tried out my new Aquablade jammers this morning and went 25y in 5 strokes full stroke, 7 kicks (no board), and 10 pulls with the buoy. Not sure how much of that is the suit and how much is the work I'm putting in, but I'll take it. I'll see on Wednesday when I get back to my old suit. I only swim for time on Fridays, so I'll experiment with time vs. stroke count then.

Posting here because no one I know in RL would know what I am talking about, and I gotta tell someone. :-)

All of these #s are down even more for me now. I typically do each length of my 200 BR warm-up in 6 or 7 strokes, I go 8-9 strokes per with the pull buoy, and 6-7 kicks per length. I did my underwater drill going four strokes after pullout four times after being stuck at 5 for a while. This is all in my slow Speedo Endurance suit. Times are about the same, but endurance is way up.

I am currently working hard on my head position, as I still pick up my chin too much if I don't focus on it.

[Allen Stark]

Posting here because no one I know in RL would know what I am talking about, and I gotta tell someone. :-)

All of these #s are down even more for me now. I typically do each length of my 200 BR warm-up in 6 or 7 strokes, I go 8-9 strokes per with the pull buoy, and 6-7 kicks per length. I did my underwater drill going four strokes after pullout four times after being stuck at 5 for a while. This is all in my slow Speedo Endurance suit. Times are about the same, but endurance is way up.

I am currently working hard on my head position, as I still pick up my chin too much if I don't focus on it.

Great!!

[Allen Stark]

Thanks, Peter and Allen. My shoulder is a few weeks away from a video performance, but I'll send that along.

I did learn the "old style" of BR, and I get the undulation part of the "wave," which feels great if I do breast pull and fly kick with fins.

I'm really just not sure what I'm supposed to feel on the insweep. I can't figure out if you real breastrokers feel as if you are squeezing the water between your forearms and that naturally pops up the torso, if you feel like the catch sort of locks a spot in the water from which you're able to slide your hips up to the cobra coil position as the arms quickly recover, if the acceleration through the insweep is the real key to it all, or if it's none of these.

I don't really ever feel much with my forearms (just my hands), even if I do a fist drill. Maybe the lack of feel is because I have extremely long, relatively thin forearms (compared to some of the forearms I see on breastrokers).

Anyway, I won't waste more of your time until I produce the video. It really looks like it would be fun to swim it right (and fast). I'm very envious.

Thanks!

I don't notice my forearms on BR any more than on free.The pressure on the hands is so much greater.2 thoughts:1)focus on accelerating through the pull and into the recovery,2) focus on getting your elbows as close together on the recovery as you comfortably can.

[Jimbosback]

I don't really ever feel much with my forearms (just my hands), even if I do a fist drill. Maybe the lack of feel is because I have extremely long, relatively thin forearms (compared to some of the forearms I see on breastrokers).

I wouldn't worry so much about the long arms. The sixty-something who smoked me in the 50M BR at my last meet had the longest arms I've ever seen.

You will find something that works for you.

[maxx12345678]

hey, are you supposed to shoot your arms out really fast BEFORE you put your face in the water? my friend, who is really good at breaststroke, says to do this, as it creates a current. wat do you guys think?

[Allen Stark]

hey, are you supposed to shoot your arms out really fast BEFORE you put your face in the water? my friend, who is really good at breaststroke, says to do this, as it creates a current. wat do you guys think?

Yes,as noted in my reply on your other thread.

[maxx12345678]

Yes,as noted in my reply on your other thread.

haha,yea thanks cause i was really confused

[maxx12345678]

Yes,as noted in my reply on your other thread.

haha,yea thanks cause i was really confused

[Zulu]

Hooray for Breaststroke!!! I've been away from swimming since college (20 years) and now my daughter is a swimmer. She started off as a backstroker, and moved on to be a champ at breaststroke (yay). watching her has motivated me to get back into the pool and I've learned so much sitting in at her clinics and practices. I told her I would get back into a race this Summer and I did, but it was a parent's relay. So, I told her I'm going to try to get my 100m breast down and go to Summer nationals next year...many laps, turns, starts, and pullouts from now.

She rocks.