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Thread: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

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    Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/ultra40a.pdf

    There is a method, which is referred to as the Rushall method which Michael Andrew uses.
    Was wondering if you had any critique about this. If this sort of training is a good idea and what are the problems.

    Would this also be good for longer events? Like the 400 IM?

    Thanks!

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    Very Active Member pwb's Avatar
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by TooPro View Post
    http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/ultra40a.pdf

    There is a method, which is referred to as the Rushall method which Michael Andrew uses.
    Was wondering if you had any critique about this. If this sort of training is a good idea and what are the problems.

    Would this also be good for longer events? Like the 400 IM?

    Thanks!
    Although I think this is being primarily applied to sprints, I'd be intrigued to contemplate a season attempting to train for a 400 IM using the approach. Do you have a link to the 'short paper' from Rushall that is referenced at the end of the document you linked?
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    I believe this is the link you're looking for: http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/bullets/ultra40b.pdf It's an interesting concept that I am now incorporating into my sprint training. The article does reference performing reps at the 100 distance for a 1500, so I'm thinking you could apply distances/intervals suitable to a 4IM...happy reading!

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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace


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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    I will probably try this for the next 2 months for 50 Free, 100 Free, 200 Free, 100 Fly, 200 IM, 400 IM, 100 Breast, 200 Breast.

    Also this really baffled my mind. I mean I think he also said dryland training doesn't effect performance. That just seems weird.

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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    I recall that when Kieren Perkins was so successful swimming the 1500 in the 1990s, one of his key training sets was 20x100 meters on 2:00 at target race pace.

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    Very Active Member Glenn's Avatar
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by TooPro View Post
    Also this really baffled my mind. I mean I think he also said dryland training doesn't effect performance. That just seems weird.
    That was really for the college age and 20 somethings, not Masters. The main concept in motor learning is that transfer of training is specific. Meaning that the swim bench and ANYTHING that is not actually swimming, does not transfer to competitive swimming. (That's why I think drills are a waste of time - but that is another topic.)

    However, I believe that for Masters the strength we can maintain through weight training (just look at Rich Abrahams' times) will help us. I figure that if we all lose 1% of strength a year after age 35, and I am keeping my strength through weight training, I will be ahead of my competition.

    Here is another study that talks specifically about strength and Masters swimmers:

    http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/training/hartley.htm

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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    All but 7 of my fast twitch fibers have retired. I need an older approach to my season. Go getum you younguns !!

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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by orca1946 View Post
    All but 7 of my fast twitch fibers have retired. I need an older approach to my season. Go getum you younguns !!
    Lol!




    So I'm taking it this is an awesome idea, but for those of a certain age?

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    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    I have done some of the Rushall type sets and I know the Fortress does a variation of them sometimes in her HIT workouts.The problem I have with the sets as the main type of workout is that they are better at training the CP system and the aerobic system,but not the anaerobic system.The way I read it there is very little lactic acid tolerance developed,which is really a great thing to have for the last 30M of a 100M. Also I find that I need more than 12.5 yd to get into a rhythm,even a sprint rhythm.When I am from 9 to 3 weeks out from a taper meet, I do them once a week.I am not as old as Orca,but I am 64.
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    I tried it. It's really, really hard to do it self-coached. You will definitely get better at super-short distances (25s!) But to do them on the short intervals with enough consistency for the supposed aerobic conditioning to kick in without a coach or a partner to keep you going is next to impossible. When you're pushing off for that 19th 25 on :30 and you need to blast it to keep it under :13 and you know you have to do it eleven more times after that, you'll give anything to be back doing some long, boring, non-race-specific pull set. Or, you'll find an excuse to stop and go home. At least, that's what I did. In other words, ultra-short is ultra-stressful, and definitely not a shortcut or "easy" way to improve your times. Done properly, it might work better than "traditional" training, at least for 100s. But it's too hard to do it properly solo.


    For a 400IM? If you've already got a really solid 400IM, I can see the ultra-short being beneficial, in that you can hammer your desired pace into your muscle memory. But you'll still need to keep that conditioning up. If you don't have the conditioning to do it well already, don't even bother.

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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by sickfish View Post
    I tried it. It's really, really hard to do it self-coached. You will definitely get better at super-short distances (25s!) But to do them on the short intervals with enough consistency for the supposed aerobic conditioning to kick in without a coach or a partner to keep you going is next to impossible. When you're pushing off for that 19th 25 on :30 and you need to blast it to keep it under :13 and you know you have to do it eleven more times after that, you'll give anything to be back doing some long, boring, non-race-specific pull set. Or, you'll find an excuse to stop and go home. At least, that's what I did. In other words, ultra-short is ultra-stressful, and definitely not a shortcut or "easy" way to improve your times. Done properly, it might work better than "traditional" training, at least for 100s. But it's too hard to do it properly solo.


    For a 400IM? If you've already got a really solid 400IM, I can see the ultra-short being beneficial, in that you can hammer your desired pace into your muscle memory. But you'll still need to keep that conditioning up. If you don't have the conditioning to do it well already, don't even bother.
    I agree with some of this. I guess it really comes down to how much drive you have. No doubt these are painful, we did something similar in practice, and we were all toasted.

    Right now I'm just looking for results. Anyway I can.

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    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by sickfish View Post
    I tried it. It's really, really hard to do it self-coached. You will definitely get better at super-short distances (25s!) But to do them on the short intervals with enough consistency for the supposed aerobic conditioning to kick in without a coach or a partner to keep you going is next to impossible. When you're pushing off for that 19th 25 on :30 and you need to blast it to keep it under :13 and you know you have to do it eleven more times after that, you'll give anything to be back doing some long, boring, non-race-specific pull set. Or, you'll find an excuse to stop and go home.
    I don't think that is what Rushall is talking about.That sounds more like a lactic acid tolerance set.A Rushall set could be 25s on the 30,but only the first 12.5 yds would be hard so that you are not engaging the anaerobic system,.When I am doing what I think of as a Rushall set it is 50s on the minute, sprinting the first 12.5.If I was faster/younger I think doing them on the 45 would be reasonable.As I understand it, the idea is to work on the high speed race specific stuff for only about 6-8 seconds each time so that you don't build up much lactic acid,therefore enabling you to do it over and over.It is very hard for me to keep mindful during these sets and if you don't keep mindful you are programming your muscles to swim wrong.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I don't think that is what Rushall is talking about.That sounds more like a lactic acid tolerance set.A Rushall set could be 25s on the 30,but only the first 12.5 yds would be hard so that you are not engaging the anaerobic system,.When I am doing what I think of as a Rushall set it is 50s on the minute, sprinting the first 12.5.If I was faster/younger I think doing them on the 45 would be reasonable.As I understand it, the idea is to work on the high speed race specific stuff for only about 6-8 seconds each time so that you don't build up much lactic acid,therefore enabling you to do it over and over.It is very hard for me to keep mindful during these sets and if you don't keep mindful you are programming your muscles to swim wrong.
    I'm trying to find the best way to train this in a 25 meter pool. I don't really wanna stop in the middle D:

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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by TooPro View Post
    I'm trying to find the best way to train this in a 25 meter pool. I don't really wanna stop in the middle D:
    I don't stop.I don't have a line at the 1/2 way point in my pool so I go by stroke count.For me swimming BR it is the pullout plus 4 strokes AFAP and then slow down to 200 pace, or recovery pace depending on my energy level, to finish the 50(with a turn of course as it is a 25 yd pool).
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I don't stop.I don't have a line at the 1/2 way point in my pool so I go by stroke count.For me swimming BR it is the pullout plus 4 strokes AFAP and then slow down to 200 pace, or recovery pace depending on my energy level, to finish the 50(with a turn of course as it is a 25 yd pool).
    Alright. Have you seen my big improvements?

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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I don't think that is what Rushall is talking about.That sounds more like a lactic acid tolerance set.A Rushall set could be 25s on the 30,but only the first 12.5 yds would be hard so that you are not engaging the anaerobic system,.When I am doing what I think of as a Rushall set it is 50s on the minute, sprinting the first 12.5.If I was faster/younger I think doing them on the 45 would be reasonable.As I understand it, the idea is to work on the high speed race specific stuff for only about 6-8 seconds each time so that you don't build up much lactic acid,therefore enabling you to do it over and over.It is very hard for me to keep mindful during these sets and if you don't keep mindful you are programming your muscles to swim wrong.
    Allen,
    Actually, 30 x 25 on :30 is a Rushall set I've done several times. You are supposed to maintain 100 race pace (for me I calculate one half of my second 50 of the race). The object is to go as many as possible at that pace. When you go one slower you sit out the next send off, then resume. At the end you total up the number of the 30 you were able to hold at pace. My best so far is 22. That is I missed four at pace and sat out four. This is a tough set and very aerobic, but you can recover from it much more quickly than a lactate set. I actually think it helps my 200 more than my 100.

    The main pure speed set of his I like is 6 x 25 on :45 doling an all out 15 meters, then cruising. I do this set four times with an easy 100 between.

    There is no way I can take a steady diet of this work (mostly from a psychological viewpoint) but, for me, twice a week when I'm preparing for a focus meet is about right. Again, recovery is very quick from this type of training.

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    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    Quote Originally Posted by Rich Abrahams View Post
    Allen,
    Actually, 30 x 25 on :30 is a Rushall set I've done several times. You are supposed to maintain 100 race pace (for me I calculate one half of my second 50 of the race). The object is to go as many as possible at that pace. When you go one slower you sit out the next send off, then resume. At the end you total up the number of the 30 you were able to hold at pace. My best so far is 22. That is I missed four at pace and sat out four. This is a tough set and very aerobic, but you can recover from it much more quickly than a lactate set. I actually think it helps my 200 more than my 100.

    The main pure speed set of his I like is 6 x 25 on :45 doling an all out 15 meters, then cruising. I do this set four times with an easy 100 between.

    There is no way I can take a steady diet of this work (mostly from a psychological viewpoint) but, for me, twice a week when I'm preparing for a focus meet is about right. Again, recovery is very quick from this type of training.
    Thanks.When my shoulder is healed I'll give that a try. I do like sets with all race pace or race pace/recovery.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    So if your L tolerence is very high, a XX x 25 on 0:30 set would qualify as UST?

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    Re: Ultra Short Training At Race Pace

    According to Rushall, the repeat distances would be as follows, based on goal race distance: 12.5's for goal race of 50, 25's for goal race of 100, 50's for goal race of 200, sometimes 75s for goal race of >200, 100s for goal race of 1500.

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