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Thread: The Breaststroke Lane

  1. #1121
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Allen, my feet should never go inboard of the longitudinal lines my knees make during br, correct?

  2. #1122
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    Allen, my feet should never go inboard of the longitudinal lines my knees make during br, correct?
    Pretty much.The possible exception is at the very finish of the kick, You want to finish with your ankles touching.If you are bowlegged(like I am) your knees could be outside your feet at full leg extension.
    At the catch, and throughout the power phase of the kick, the feet should be outside the knees.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  3. #1123
    Very Active Member swimflyfast's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Are you recommending that as a drill because,um,it's illegal.
    Yes, just as a drill Allen. The extra kick keeps you in the 'streamline state of mind' in hopes that you transfer that to the swim. It is important to know how you feel as you stream line off the wall especially if you are going to do it 20-66 times in a swim. This is not something I would recommend to do all the time as you might forget... and get busted. You do not want to be DQ'd after swimming 66 lengths! A sprinter might want to get to the surface and start swimming faster (higher stroke count per length).

    In long distance fly,back,or breast it is important to get all you can out of the turns. It can be 20% of your swim time. We have intentional sets that keep the swimmer under the water for each stroke longer then normal for that purpose (feel the streamline) and to help build up the lungs a bit. I like to ask swimmers to do this when they have the lane to themselves so they can swim right down the center line. The longer turn gives them better feedback on how straight they come off the turn, and how tight their stream line is.
    If straight they will head right down the lane. (1/2 foot out of the way x 66 = 10 yards extra swimming) If tight they get out further say 2 feet x 66 =44yds. 10 + 44 = 54 two free lengths! Swim less!

    I'd love to hear some tips on how people might modify their kick for long distance BreastStroke to reduce potential injury.
    Would one modify the head position while breathing, less height? Lengthen or shorten the stroke?

    1650 Breaststroke

    Charlie

  4. #1124
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    If Allen or anyone else could help...a couple of things...(I have a race Saturday)

    1) A lifeguard at the Y, who is also a competitive swimmer, told me by breaststroke is unorthodox and that I am pulling out to the side instead of to the side and down. He says my pull out should start like a butterfly stroke, albeit without starting with the arms above the surface. I have tried changing my stroke slightly and feel much faster. Is this sound advice?

    2) In the recovery phase of the stroke, do I HAVE to have my palms up until I am ready to start the outsweep, or this a personal preference. Also, should the hand touch at the end of the glide, or be kept shoulder width apart...I have heard different things there as well.

    3) I am only swimming a 50...I have played around with trying to maximize my glide, which while I think it is important, I am wondering if I would go faster with simply a faster stroke, i.e., starting the next stroke as soon as possible, without worrying about gliding so much.

  5. #1125
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by biestieboy58 View Post
    If Allen or anyone else could help...a couple of things...(I have a race Saturday)

    1) A lifeguard at the Y, who is also a competitive swimmer, told me by breaststroke is unorthodox and that I am pulling out to the side instead of to the side and down. He says my pull out should start like a butterfly stroke, albeit without starting with the arms above the surface. I have tried changing my stroke slightly and feel much faster. Is this sound advice?

    2) In the recovery phase of the stroke, do I HAVE to have my palms up until I am ready to start the outsweep, or this a personal preference. Also, should the hand touch at the end of the glide, or be kept shoulder width apart...I have heard different things there as well.

    3) I am only swimming a 50...I have played around with trying to maximize my glide, which while I think it is important, I am wondering if I would go faster with simply a faster stroke, i.e., starting the next stroke as soon as possible, without worrying about gliding so much.
    1)I'd agree with the life guard.Think like EVF,but with a greater angle at the elbow.
    2) Most coaches say recover palms down,but a few coaches I have talked to who understand BR say individual preference.I think I get a little more thrust at the end of the insweep with palms up.
    On the hands together vs apart:it is a question of give and take.Hands apart you can get into the catch faster.Hands together you are more streamlined and can glide further.Experiment! Either way it is important to really stretch forward and squeeze you ears with your biceps.
    3)Don't glide in a 50.Get into streamline at the end of every stroke,but go immediately into the next stroke.Just don't overlap and start the pull before you finish the kick.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  6. #1126
    Very Active Member Swimspire's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by biestieboy58 View Post
    If Allen or anyone else could help...a couple of things...(I have a race Saturday)

    1) A lifeguard at the Y, who is also a competitive swimmer, told me by breaststroke is unorthodox and that I am pulling out to the side instead of to the side and down. He says my pull out should start like a butterfly stroke, albeit without starting with the arms above the surface. I have tried changing my stroke slightly and feel much faster. Is this sound advice?

    2) In the recovery phase of the stroke, do I HAVE to have my palms up until I am ready to start the outsweep, or this a personal preference. Also, should the hand touch at the end of the glide, or be kept shoulder width apart...I have heard different things there as well.

    3) I am only swimming a 50...I have played around with trying to maximize my glide, which while I think it is important, I am wondering if I would go faster with simply a faster stroke, i.e., starting the next stroke as soon as possible, without worrying about gliding so much.
    To follow up on Allen's advice, I would just add that - during your race - its probably best not to play around with your stroke too much. Just get a sense of your time for the 50, note it down, and if you can, get someone to film you while you're swimming. Afterwards, you can review your stroke and begin to implement changes to your stroke during practice. For your next race, you will have a benchmark (your previous race time in the 50) to be able to measure your progress.

  7. #1127
    Active Member swimark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by biestieboy58 View Post
    If Allen or anyone else could help...a couple of things...(I have a race Saturday)

    1) A lifeguard at the Y, who is also a competitive swimmer, told me by breaststroke is unorthodox and that I am pulling out to the side instead of to the side and down. He says my pull out should start like a butterfly stroke, albeit without starting with the arms above the surface. I have tried changing my stroke slightly and feel much faster. Is this sound advice?

    2) In the recovery phase of the stroke, do I HAVE to have my palms up until I am ready to start the outsweep, or this a personal preference. Also, should the hand touch at the end of the glide, or be kept shoulder width apart...I have heard different things there as well.

    3) I am only swimming a 50...I have played around with trying to maximize my glide, which while I think it is important, I am wondering if I would go faster with simply a faster stroke, i.e., starting the next stroke as soon as possible, without worrying about gliding so much.
    There was a recent rule change... your hands must be separated on the touch for the turn and finish.

    101.2.4 Turns and Finish—At each turn and at the finish of the race, the touch shall be
    made with both hands separated and simultaneously at, above or below the water level.
    At the last stroke before the turn and at the finish an arm stroke not followed by a leg
    kick is permitted. The head may be…preceding the touch.

    http://www.usms.org/rules/20130915_u...na_changes.pdf

  8. #1128
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Thanks to all who replied.


    Quote Originally Posted by swimark View Post
    There was a recent rule change... your hands must be separated on the touch for the turn and finish.

    101.2.4 Turns and Finish—At each turn and at the finish of the race, the touch shall be
    made with both hands separated and simultaneously at, above or below the water level.
    At the last stroke before the turn and at the finish an arm stroke not followed by a leg
    kick is permitted. The head may be…preceding the touch.

    http://www.usms.org/rules/20130915_u...na_changes.pdf

  9. #1129
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Couple of swims from the weekend (need to split posts), at the British short course (m) masters.
    50 breast: 31.30 (I'm in lane 4 - 5th from the bottom in the red hat)

  10. #1130
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    100 breast: 66.62 - lane 5 in the red hat (lifetime best at 40 - following on from the recent thread about that). Interestingly, I had a poor start on the 100, took 7 & 8 strokes over the first 50 and split 31.47.... compare and contrast to the 50!


    On the subject of the start, if you look at the guy one lane up, he pulls back more whereas I start from a more neutral position (or even slightly forward). I'm inexperienced with those blocks... I also think I might have pulled down too soon (though you might not see that level of detail in the video).

    Oh, and I got a British Record in the 200, with 2.26.19!

  11. #1131
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Congratulations, Robert!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  12. #1132
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by robertsrobson View Post
    100 breast: 66.62 - lane 5 in the red hat (lifetime best at 40 - following on from the recent thread about that). Interestingly, I had a poor start on the 100, took 7 & 8 strokes over the first 50 and split 31.47.... compare and contrast to the 50!


    On the subject of the start, if you look at the guy one lane up, he pulls back more whereas I start from a more neutral position (or even slightly forward). I'm inexperienced with those blocks... I also think I might have pulled down too soon (though you might not see that level of detail in the video).

    Oh, and I got a British Record in the 200, with 2.26.19!
    It is a little hard to see stroke in these videos(and you were not the only swimmer in a red cap) but these swims look really good.You stroke is a little like Van Der Burgh's.I think you keep your head a little high,especially in the 50,but it seems to be working for you.Great swims,congratulations.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  13. #1133
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    By the way, we seemed to have quite a high number of disqualifications at our Nationals - both for 'hands touching' on breastroke turns and for gliding in on backstroke. I saw a lady who must have been at least 75, who had been Dq'd and was completely mystified. It's really difficult to keep people up-to-date when we don't compete so often and don't (necessarily) have professional coaches.

    I haven't yet spoken to anyone that can explain the advantage gained from turning with your hands touching on breast.
    Last edited by robertsrobson; November 4th, 2013 at 05:28 AM.

  14. #1134

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Damn we had same story at our Nationals - also too many DQs.

  15. #1135
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by robertsrobson View Post
    By the way, we seemed to have quite a high number of disqualifications at our Nationals - both for 'hands touching' on breastroke turns and for gliding in on backstroke. I saw a lady who must have been at least 75, who had been Dq'd and was completely mystified. It's really difficult to keep people up-to-date when we don't compete so often and don't (necessarily) have professional coaches.

    I haven't yet spoken to anyone that can explain the advantage gained from turning with your hands touching on breast.
    The rational for the "hands must be separate at each turn and finish"rule escapes me.
    Does anyone know what David Guthrie did to get DQd in his otherwise WR 200 BR.I am currently trying the early dolphin in the pullout.I am pretty sure I am legal from my reading of the rules,but if the refs have a different interpretation I need to know ASAP.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  16. #1136
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    The rational for the "hands must be separate at each turn and finish"rule escapes me.
    Does anyone know what David Guthrie did to get DQd in his otherwise WR 200 BR.I am currently trying the early dolphin in the pullout.I am pretty sure I am legal from my reading of the rules,but if the refs have a different interpretation I need to know ASAP.
    The officials incorrectly called a DQ for his hands not being separated before the dolphin kick on the pullout (he pre-kicks). According to David, his hands were in a streamline position and then he moved them side to side before initiating his dolphin kick. This is what I do and is totally legit. But the officials seem to have some nazi like agenda at that meet. 8 men were DQ'd for this infraction in one event.

  17. #1137

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    It's a shame that because of political fear to DQ the Olympic gold medal winner for a blatant dolphin kick. all swimmers have to incorporate a dolphin kick in their swims.

  18. #1138
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    The officials incorrectly called a DQ for his hands not being separated before the dolphin kick on the pullout (he pre-kicks). According to David, his hands were in a streamline position and then he moved them side to side before initiating his dolphin kick. This is what I do and is totally legit. But the officials seem to have some nazi like agenda at that meet. 8 men were DQ'd for this infraction in one event.
    A friend of mine was disqualified for that. I watched it back on video and it was inconclusive. How officials can focus simultaneously on your hands and feet, to a level of accuracy, I don't know. I mean, they can't even tell if van der Burgh (and others) are doing extra fly kicks....

  19. #1139

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by robertsrobson View Post
    A friend of mine was disqualified for that. I watched it back on video and it was inconclusive. How officials can focus simultaneously on your hands and feet, to a level of accuracy, I don't know. I mean, they can't even tell if van der Burgh (and others) are doing extra fly kicks....
    Sorry I digressed to the 2008 Olympics where the gold medal winner obviously dolphin kicked off the walls and was not DQed (believed it was political). Instead of enforcing the rules FINA decided to change them and we are in the mess we are today.

  20. #1140
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I was told that David Guthrie was DQd for not making the pulldown continuous i.e. separating his hands, dolphin kick,finish the pulldown.I was also told others were DQd for this at Nats.I thought that that was legal BREASTSTROKE INTERPRETATION

    SW 7.1 After the start and after each turn, the swimmer may take one arm stroke
    completely back to the legs during which the swimmer may be submerged. A single
    butterfly kick is permitted during the first arm stroke, followed by a breaststroke kick.

    Interpretation
    The first arm stroke begins with the separation of the hands.

    SW 7.2 From the beginning of the first arm stroke after the start and after each turn, the
    body shall be on the breast. It is not permitted to roll onto the back at any time. From the
    start and throughout the race the stroke cycle must be one arm stroke and one leg kick in
    that order. All movements of the arms shall be simultaneous and on the same horizontal
    plane without alternating movement.

    Interpretation
    A pause after the separation of the hands is not a violation of the rule.

    See that last line"A pause after separation of the hands is NOT a violation of the rule."
    Can some of our rule Gurus comment.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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