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Thread: The Breaststroke Lane

  1. #541
    Very Active Member Debugger's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Sorry,I said I wanted my pull to be like Soni's but my recovery like Kitajima's.I loved the article you referenced.I believe Jones pulls back too far.I love Soni's pull up to her recovery,but by essentially eliminating the insweep she has to get her shoulders up for the recovery and even then she is splashing water forward with her upper arms.I think it works for her because she is very flexible and otherwise has exellent timing(and fantastic conditioning.)
    Agree, I meant stroke in general - it looks as smooth. I think Rebecca's style works for her because of perfect timing - it looks very unusual comparing to others. Water bug was perfect comparison.

  2. #542
    Very Active Member Debugger's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    As for the pull technique - this video might be helpful for someone:
    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt4P9oPs8r8"]Breaststroke technique - arms - YouTube[/nomedia]

  3. #543
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Debugger View Post
    As for the pull technique - this video might be helpful for someone:
    Breaststroke technique - arms - YouTube
    Very nice video which should be helpful.There are a couple of things though.I hve been trying to go directly into the pull from the streamline position instead of spreading my hands at the beginning of the catch as the video,and most coaches recommend.I think the swimmer pulls his elbows back too far and doesn't accelerate into the recovery giving him a little too much time in the high drag"prayer position". These are minor issues,it is a good video.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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  4. #544
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Very nice video which should be helpful.There are a couple of things though.I hve been trying to go directly into the pull from the streamline position instead of spreading my hands at the beginning of the catch as the video,and most coaches recommend.I think the swimmer pulls his elbows back too far and doesn't accelerate into the recovery giving him a little too much time in the high drag"prayer position". These are minor issues,it is a good video.
    Sure, I visited their site - their main purpose is general fitness and I never saw any fitness swimmer using back to accelerate the recovery because it takes much more effort to swim it. Nevertheless interesting is the way he explains hand position - I was taught the same way but got confused because on most videos of the breaststrokers they make out sweep and pull which is wider than I'm used to. I tried that way making my pull wider and the good thing I found that it causes better lift though making the way it is shown on the video feels like giving better propulsion. Still searching the best way for me and I guess it might differ for 50, 100 and 200.

  5. #545
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I thought I'd say hi. I'm Scottish, based in England and came on here as there's nothing like this at home (and not the same numbers of masters swimmers to take part anyway).

    I've been a breastroker since i learned to swim as a nipper. I swam through high school and was Scottish junior champion over 100 and 200 breastroke but got fed up and quit at 18.

    I took swimming up again at 34 and have been back for 4 years and am really enjoying competing. Thus far it's been limited to UK meets due to family, cost etc. I prefer swimming short course, and would love to come over to the US and swim SCY. I did this a few times in league meets at high school (only the very old pools in the UK are yards) and loved it. If nothing else, it cuts the horrible bit off each swim!

    My current 'regime' is:
    3 x 1 hr swim per week - tends towards higher end aerobic and anaerobic work, depending on time of the year
    1 x Yoga - as mucha s anything for health but I'm sure it helps
    1-3 weights - moderate weight, aiming to get the heart rate up rather than pure strength
    1-2 run - at certain times of the year I do more running and less weight training, as much as anything to do a few 10ks for fun

    I find that this gives me a workout most days (there's always some reason why I can't do it all). I try to do basic conditioning out of the pool and keep the quality fairly high in. Time is limited, so why slog out aerobic yards in the pool?

    I'm interested in training principles and how they intersect with the realities of being a masters swimmer. Most of the science is based on elite or developing elite swimmers, who don't have our constraints. You can have a brilliantly put together training plan for the year but work, holidays or any number of family events/crises can instantly throw it!

    I love being a breastroker. I'm a mediocre freestyler and flyer, and an awful backstroker but none of that matters! I love doing something that people struggle to do technically.

    I compete in masters events 3-4 times a year, and usually find that enough sitting around on a poolside, but if I decide to go for Europeans or Worlds (maybe US) at some point would do more to get race ready. I've won (I think) 7 GB National titles in the last 3 years between SCM and LCM (have only been to 2 LCM meets). I'm not an expert, though I enjoy sharing and helping others and look forward to doing so here.

    Current masters PBs:
    (SCM) 50 - 31.09 (29.8 relay), 100: 66.8, 200: 2.25.5
    (LCM) 50 32.0, 100: 71.0
    Last edited by robertsrobson; September 14th, 2011 at 08:57 AM.

  6. #546
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by robertsrobson View Post
    I thought I'd say hi. I'm Scottish, based in England and came on here as there's nothing like this at home (and not the same numbers of masters swimmers to take part anyway).

    I've been a breastroker since i learned to swim as a nipper. I swam through high school and was Scottish junior champion over 100 and 200 breastroke but got fed up and quit at 18.

    I took swimming up again at 34 and have been back for 4 years and am really enjoying competing. Thus far it's been limited to UK meets due to family, cost etc. I prefer swimming short course, and would love to come over to the US and swim SCY. I did this a few times in league meets at high school (only the very old pools in the UK are yards) and loved it. If nothing else, it cuts the horrible bit off each swim!

    My current 'regime' is:
    3 x 1 hr swim per week - tends towards higher end aerobic and anaerobic work, depending on time of the year
    1 x Yoga - as mucha s anything for health but I'm sure it helps
    1-3 weights - moderate weight, aiming to get the heart rate up rather than pure strength
    1-2 run - at certain times of the year I do more running and less weight training, as much as anything to do a few 10ks for fun

    I find that this gives me a workout most days (there's always some reason why I can't do it all). I try to do basic conditioning out of the pool and keep the quality fairly high in. Time is limited, so why slog out aerobic yards in the pool?

    I'm interested in training principles and how they intersect with the realities of being a masters swimmer. Most of the science is based on elite or developing elite swimmers, who don't have our constraints. You can have a brilliantly put together training plan for the year but work, holidays or any number of family events/crises can instantly throw it!

    I love being a breastroker. I'm a mediocre freestyler and flyer, and an awful backstroker but none of that matters! I love doing something that people struggle to do technically.

    I compete in masters events 3-4 times a year, and usually find that enough sitting around on a poolside, but if I decide to go for Europeans or Worlds (maybe US) at some point would do more to get race ready. I've won (I think) 7 GB National titles in the last 3 years between SCM and LCM (have only been to 2 LCM meets). I'm not an expert, though I enjoy sharing and helping others and look forward to doing so here.

    Current masters PBs:
    (SCM) 50 - 31.09 (29.8 relay), 100: 66.8, 200: 2.25.5
    (LCM) 50 32.0, 100: 71.0
    Welcome.
    Your training regime seems to be working for you.I think the most important thing is to have a system you enjoy and that is sustainable.Life is inconsistent,but to the extent you can make you training consistent the better the results.
    I hate running so my saying that it might give you better results to drop a run for a swim day is a biased opinion,but I do suspect you'd get better results with 4 days swimming.
    Do you have any videos of your swimming,I'd love to see your stroke?
    2014 Worlds will be in Montreal,maybe we could see you there?
    Last edited by Allen Stark; September 14th, 2011 at 03:52 PM.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  7. #547
    aka Elaine-iaK & Aqua Dog ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    2012 Worlds will be in Montreal,maybe we could see you there?
    Hey, King Frog! I thought Montreal wasn't until 2013 or 2014. I'll have to find that thread...

    Rob, welcome to the USMS forums and especially to my favorite thread! Glad to hear you are a fellow frog!

    If I can give you any advice, listen to everything Allen Stark ("King Frog") says. He really IS the King Frog, because he broke the WORLD RECORD in the 200 breaststroke, in the 60-64 age group, just last month at Nationals!

    If you post a video, Allen will be quick to provide excellent feedback. Just go back to earlier posts on this thread, so you can see what I mean.

    Cheers!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  8. #548
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Hey, King Frog! I thought Montreal wasn't until 2013 or 2014. I'll have to find that thread...

    Rob, welcome to the USMS forums and especially to my favorite thread! Glad to hear you are a fellow frog!

    If I can give you any advice, listen to everything Allen Stark ("King Frog") says. He really IS the King Frog, because he broke the WORLD RECORD in the 200 breaststroke, in the 60-64 age group, just last month at Nationals!

    If you post a video, Allen will be quick to provide excellent feedback. Just go back to earlier posts on this thread, so you can see what I mean.

    Cheers!
    ARRRRG,I meant 2014,but My fingers missed.Yes,2014!!(I'll correct my post now)
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  9. #549
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by robertsrobson View Post
    (SCM) 50 - 31.09 (29.8 relay), 100: 66.8, 200: 2.25.5
    (LCM) 50 32.0, 100: 71.0
    Impressive times!

    Why not work with heavier weights? Heavy squatting made a huge difference for me.
    "Think of your breaststroke as a jewel: You never hammer it, you only polish it."

  10. #550
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Robert, Welcome

    Robert, I do love Scotland. I have swam in their masters Long Course championships and the Invitational in Glasgow during November each year.

    Scotland has had some great breaststrokers. Wilkie for starters.

    Your times are vey good, but I am not too sure about your training.

    It doesn't matter what your age 22 or 82, you will swim breaststroke faster with stronger muscles.

    I was impressed that someone had the distance per stroke at 1.53 meters per stroke, but who can tell me how much of that 1.53 meters comes from the pull and how much distance is from the kick and gilde?? You will get an A in breaststroke if you get within 10% of the correct value.

    I believe the single best weight device is the inclined leg press, every gym has them because they are MUCH safer that standard squats. Most people do not even lift their own body weight, I am a believer that a good breaststroker should be able to lift two (2) to three (3) times their own weight. As I always say, COME ON, when you walk you are lifting your own body weight. That is just a MINUMUM starting point for the weakest woman.

    Allen should be doing about 300 pounds minumum.

    At my best when I weighed 190 pounds I was squatting five (5) times my body weight, a thousand and eighty pounds (1080) for 30 reps. That is a one second up and two seconds down cycle.

    I was shocked when our masters swimmer and Swimming World contributor Jeff told us how much ( little) he squatted. Then he stated his kick was weak.

    I like the inclined squat lep press because your body is at nearly the exact angle as your body is on the starting blocks.

    You are always welcome in the USA, not nearly as much difficulty as swimming in another european country.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  11. #551
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by androvski View Post
    Impressive times!

    Why not work with heavier weights? Heavy squatting made a huge difference for me.
    I guess I'm nost insterested in staying in good overall shape and although I enjoy competing getting faster is probably secondary. So I like to do stuff that keeps my heart rate up. I'm also more naturally inclined to the 200m so am keen to keep endurance up. In saying that I've probably only done one 200 in 4 years where I've 'left it in the pool'!

  12. #552
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by breastroker View Post
    Robert, Welcome

    Robert, I do love Scotland. I have swam in their masters Long Course championships and the Invitational in Glasgow during November each year.

    Scotland has had some great breaststrokers. Wilkie for starters.

    Your times are vey good, but I am not too sure about your training.

    It doesn't matter what your age 22 or 82, you will swim breaststroke faster with stronger muscles.

    I was impressed that someone had the distance per stroke at 1.53 meters per stroke, but who can tell me how much of that 1.53 meters comes from the pull and how much distance is from the kick and gilde?? You will get an A in breaststroke if you get within 10% of the correct value.

    I believe the single best weight device is the inclined leg press, every gym has them because they are MUCH safer that standard squats. Most people do not even lift their own body weight, I am a believer that a good breaststroker should be able to lift two (2) to three (3) times their own weight. As I always say, COME ON, when you walk you are lifting your own body weight. That is just a MINUMUM starting point for the weakest woman.

    Allen should be doing about 300 pounds minumum.

    At my best when I weighed 190 pounds I was squatting five (5) times my body weight, a thousand and eighty pounds (1080) for 30 reps. That is a one second up and two seconds down cycle.

    I was shocked when our masters swimmer and Swimming World contributor Jeff told us how much ( little) he squatted. Then he stated his kick was weak.

    I like the inclined squat lep press because your body is at nearly the exact angle as your body is on the starting blocks.

    You are always welcome in the USA, not nearly as much difficulty as swimming in another european country.
    Thanks - I'm always keen to learn and I've enjoyed reading your articles.

    I may be sacrificing speed for overall condition, but having been very unfit in the not-to-distant am fairly happy with that. I also haven't gone out of my way to access the fkind of facilities that would allow me to do that. I tend to match my regime to the facilities that I already have easy access to! However, I may start to experiment with some heavier squats etc.

    The forum is adding value already!

    Thanks

    Oh - and for such a small country we have some great breastrokers at the moment - Michael Jamieson (World Finalist), Kris Gilchrist (former world s/c champion), closely followed by others including Craig Benson, who at 17 is doing 59.5 SCM.
    Last edited by robertsrobson; September 15th, 2011 at 04:56 AM.

  13. #553
    Very Active Member Thrashing Slug's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Welcome to the forum, Robert. Your times are wicked fast.



    Quote Originally Posted by breastroker View Post
    At my best when I weighed 190 pounds I was squatting five (5) times my body weight, a thousand and eighty pounds (1080) for 30 reps. That is a one second up and two seconds down cycle.
    Wayne, that's an impressive amount of weight. Are you talking about the "sled" machine where your back is to the floor and you push the weights up, or the simulated squat in a semi-standing position with the pads on your shoulders? Either way I cannot imagine doing 1080 once, let alone 30 times. Did you do 30 continuous reps, or sets of a smaller number?

    I weigh 185-190, and I can do reps with 360. The most I've ever lifted on the sled is 520, which is probably not my max since I lifted it 3x. What I typically do for squats is to use the barbel for warmup and everything up until body weight or slightly above. Then I move to the sled for heavier weights.

    It's good to know that such high numbers are possible for someone of my weight, although I'm pretty sure you are an edge case.
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by breastroker View Post
    I believe the single best weight device is the inclined leg press, every gym has them because they are MUCH safer that standard squats.
    I respectfully disagree. Squatting is perfectly safe if done correctly. In fact, it is probably safer than a leg press which puts your lower back at risk, due to extreme lumbar flexion.

    Not to mention that the squat it will yield superior strength gains and hip mobility. Like Rippetoe says:

    There is simply no other exercise, and certainly no machine, that produces the level of central nervous system activity, improved balance and coordination, skeletal loading and bone density enhancement, muscular stimulation and growth, connective tissue stress and strength, psychological demand and toughness, and overall systemic conditioning than the correctly performed full squat.
    And not to sound like a ****, but leg pressing is not a good way to test someone's strength. Plenty of people can press 2 or 3 times their bodyweight. See how much they can squat. A good squatter will always be a good leg presser, whereas a good leg presser can be a terrible squatter.
    "Think of your breaststroke as a jewel: You never hammer it, you only polish it."

  15. #555
    Very Active Member Thrashing Slug's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    True, squatting is perfectly safe, if you stay well within your limits. For those of us who don't have a spotter, attempting to squat anywhere near our max could be a recipe for disaster.

    I like free weights much better than the machines, but I can't lift anywhere near the same amount of weight because of the stress that it puts on my back and shoulders. I always feel like my legs hardly worked at all when I finish squatting, which is why I finish up with heavier lifts on the sled.


    Quote Originally Posted by androvski View Post
    Plenty of people can press 2 or 3 times their bodyweight. See how much they can squat. A good squatter will always be a good leg presser, whereas a good leg presser can be a terrible squatter.
    <raises hand> yep, former terrible squatter here, turned novice squatter.

    I think it's a good idea for all strength trainers to do some real squatting, because of all the benefits Androvski mentioned. However I'm not so sure that everyone needs to do squatting with heavy weights. The risks outweigh the benefits at a certain point.


    I guess the real question is: Is doing leg presses with more weight than you can squat worthwhile at all, or should we focus exclusively on pure squatting with manageable amounts of weight and good technique?
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  16. #556
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Chris,

    In the inclined leg press the rails for the sled are at a 45 degree to horizontal, and your back can be adjusted about 90 degrees to the rails the sled rides on.

    I know a whole lot of people who swear by free weights, and all of the twenty or more types of free standing squats. But without assistance there is no way anyone can safely lift over 500 pounds, esp. if it is a jefferson squat.

    Technically with the 45 degree angle the weight is about .77%, as you are lift over the hypotoneus of a right triangle.

    When I am in shape or like now out, I always start at ten 45 pound plates, for 450 pounds. The proper ways is to emphasise the negative, pushing up for one second and taking 2-3 seconds to lower the sled weights. When in shape the sets are multiples of thirty. Now I do ten correctly, stretch a little and add two more 45 plates for 540 pounds. Again 10 reps, stretch and add another two 45 plates. I am up to 720 now, probably going to start increasing the reps to 20 and eventually 30 before going up to 810 pounds. Hopefully by Christmas.

    Now if you really want to hurt, this workout came from an air force PJ, we started at 450, went to 810 and then went down again to 450, in 90 pound increments. That extra time and weight really does the job. I always hurt for a week when working out with him. But he was 25 and I was 55.


    The weights seem to help distance breast first, so the 200 times drop first. But when I tapered off extra swims and weights, my verticle jump increased almost a foot Most distance swimmers have a verticle of 12 inches

    But sprinters and breaststrokers are typically two feet or better. Not quite NBA material when the mean is 36 inches and some go as good as 44 inches.

    But tapering is another topic.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  17. #557
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Wayne, just to let you know that I've made a modification to my weights programme. Until I taper I'm rotating in an extra weights session where I do heavier legs and chest.

    Specifically, on legs I've added in 3 sets of 6-8 squat jumps and jump lunges with 2x20kg dumbells, plus leg extensions.

    The chest is based on a 'complex' that I normally do (6 exercises, 6 reps of each for 6 sets) but doing only 3x3x3.

    I don't have access to heavier barbell equipment and train alone normally, so doing plyometric exercises, aiming for maximum extension, will have to do for now.

    I'll lose access to the free gym I have at work soon, which may force me into finding optimal facilities rather than working around what I have.

    I did this a few hours before a lactic tolerance set on breastroke last week and absolutely crumbled! 11 seconds dropoff over 5x100 on 4!

  18. #558
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Debugger View Post
    Sure, I visited their site - their main purpose is general fitness and I never saw any fitness swimmer using back to accelerate the recovery because it takes much more effort to swim it. Nevertheless interesting is the way he explains hand position - I was taught the same way but got confused because on most videos of the breaststrokers they make out sweep and pull which is wider than I'm used to. I tried that way making my pull wider and the good thing I found that it causes better lift though making the way it is shown on the video feels like giving better propulsion. Still searching the best way for me and I guess it might differ for 50, 100 and 200.
    Not sure if others agree but there's a school of thought that says the stroke should be the same between 50/100/200 except for the length of time spent in the streamline position....?

  19. #559
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by robertsrobson View Post
    Not sure if others agree but there's a school of thought that says the stroke should be the same between 50/100/200 except for the length of time spent in the streamline position....?
    I mostly agree with that.I try to make the stroke the same except for the glide,but the recovery is a little different due to riding higher in the water while sprinting.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  20. #560
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Younger people can get away doing squats as long as they do them correctly.

    But most older people have numerous age related problems. I have two broken elbows, one arm can not straighten out the other can't bend beyond 90 degrees. Also have a bad shoulder that "needs" surgery ( not going to happen), and a bad knee with only 15% of the medial collateral ligament left.
    Just part of getting older. Hang arround the 60-70 year old men and you can see every scar and injury in the medical book.

    I like the leg press because it helps me with nearly 40% of the breaststroke race. It is perfect for the start, better than any other squat. It also helps me on the walls, it sure isn't my streamlined body that gets me to 13 to 15 yards per pushoff.

    But again there is only one exercise that helps your kick get faster and stronger, remember it is NOT the muscles that propel you forwards that get tired. It is the muscles that pull your feet back to the but that DO get tired.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

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