I'm sorry for assuming the alleged infraction took place on the first length. I never heard any details of the DQ but I did see your first length so that is what I thought happened. That's what happens when you make assumptions I guess! My apologies.
Wolfy - it really doesn't matter to me who made the protest, that wasn't my question. I was simply asking Fort how she would have felt if the judge said she took one kick and two pulls and then edited the DQ slip accordingly. Would that have made her feel any better?
Poor Ande's thread has been completely hijacked!
I have entered the snapdragon stage of my life (Part of me has snapped and the rest of me is draggin ).
Ande's thread is not hijacked. We're discussing evil pulldowns and how to do them properly and also now to avoid DQs.
Uh, if an S&T judge says the DQ is for X and then changes his/her mind and says the DQ was for Y (and, oh, yeah, I guess maybe I didn't see X), a Ref tosses out that DQ slip. They have to be certain and specific on a call. The S&T didn't even indicate what length it was on on the DQ slip, which you are supposed to. I had to ask him. He messed up; it happens.
Yes, Floyd, the meet ref could have done that if he was so inclined.
I guess I just need patience: if Kitajima is in the next Olympics, I'm sure they'll relax the rules again.
Failing that, I wish they didn't allow ANY dolphin kicks (and were strict about it).
If there is any doubt about the veracity of a call then that DQ should get pocketed by the ref 10 out of 10 times. And I have done just that on many occasions.
With regards to reviewing the slip and portesting based upon how the slip was written, you are missing the point which was that '2 complete cycles underwater' does not outline which of the defined (and this is THE key here) stroke rules were violated.
There are rules for all strokes but there are also rules on how those stroke rules are enforced.
Paul - I have no experience with DQs - either from an officiating standpoint or receiving them. So that is why I was asking naive questions. My analogy is let's say you get caught speeding. The cop says you were going 70 in a 55 zone and you ask, "are you sure I wasn't going 65?" If he says, "ok, yes, my mistake you were only going 65." You're still busted so why ask the question? I guess I got hung up with why Fort asked if the official wasn't confused and perhaps it was only one kick but two pulls (since two pulls is still illegal). But now I see you are saying if they change their story it is grounds for dismissal. I did not know that but now I do. Thanks for the clarification.
All of this is why I have gone back to doing my dolphin kick near the end of my pulldown. There are judges out there that seem to have it in for anybody that appears to benefit from doing the dolphin kick at the beginning of the pulldown. It's not worth it.
This is also a reason why I'm happy to see the speed suits go. Nobody will be going 18 meters underwater on their second length pulldown without one of those suckers on (unless they are going VERY slowly).
And I didn't go 18 meters on the second length, as you would have seen if you had read the prior posts more carefully. It was the first 25. But are you so sure of your assertion? I swam 2 50s frees this weekend at the end of each day, one in a B70 and one in a kneeskin. Only .1 difference. The pre-kick in evil makes a difference for risk taking dolphin kickers.
Last edited by The Fortress; April 26th, 2010 at 11:33 PM.
I always scope out the officials ahead of time to see if I am seeded nearest the official who doesn't seem to be paying attention (I swim at a lot of USA-S meets with younger kids, and the officials a lot of times are busy watching their kids race and not the lanes they are in charge of). If i draw the official with his/her head in the clouds, I will work in a second (I have been known to sneak in a third on a few occasions) just for the extra speed.
Yes, I guess since it is against the rulebook, it is "cheating", but I always see "cheating" in our sport is more using performance enhancing drugs (and, dare I say it, "suits"). I see myself bending an already ludicrous rule which was better left alone. Lets see, an olympian does an illegal pullout, wins gold, and then FINA turns around and legalizes what the swimmer did. I was fine without the dolphin kick.
Allen, I think you posted links to some good-form BR videos in other threads. Could you please repost the links here, so I can find them again?
The rules are pretty clear on strokes. If it takes some sort of editing or re-explanation or nuanced call, it probably shouldn't be a DQ.