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Thread: The Breaststroke Lane

  1. #821
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Part 5 Mistakes in breathing: Perfect

    But the most important part of the series is the last statement
    "Beyond speed, the biggest challenge and the goal of any breaststroke technique is to ensure continuous swimming!"

    That is why my byline is "Its not how fast you swim but how fast you slow down"

    Just watching Scott Weltz win the 200 breast for the second time tonight. Love his stroke. His hips and butt comes up, he uses his lats instead of his arms for his quick hybrid scull and pull, and he spends a long time in base streamline position. He just needs to get two seconds faster for the Olympics. A 2:07 flat could win, not bad without the slicker suits. Women will get to 2:21 for the winner, with the entire finals under 2:24.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  2. #822
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Great analysis Wayne.I think you comments about the pull and that it's OK to get your butt up are really important.I hated to question Nagy,so I'm glad you could.
    I'd say ,for any of you IMers out there who think you BR is hopeless,look at Lochte.He is not a natural breaststroker and not that many years ago it was clearly his weakest stroke.Now he has an excellent BR and it is really the difference between him and the rest of the world in the IM.He wisely scratched the 100 BR at Trials,but I'd love to see what he could do in a 200 BR shaved and tapered.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  3. #823
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I noticed in the men’s 200 breast final at trials, Clark Burkle finished with a quick extra pull without kicking. He also did this coming into the second turn. I thought that you had to come into the wall on a full stork cycle on the turns and finish. Is this legal? You can clearly see in this video that Burkle doesn’t kick or even turn his feet out on the finish and second turn. [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de_OlfKAYn4&feature=related"]2012 US Swimming Olympic Trial Men's 200 Breaststroke Final - YouTube[/nomedia]
    The clock does not lie

  4. #824
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren View Post
    I noticed in the men’s 200 breast final at trials, Clark Burkle finished with a quick extra pull without kicking. He also did this coming into the second turn. I thought that you had to come into the wall on a full stork cycle on the turns and finish. Is this legal? You can clearly see in this video that Burkle doesn’t kick or even turn his feet out on the finish and second turn. 2012 US Swimming Olympic Trial Men's 200 Breaststroke Final - YouTube
    Legal.The order for BR is pull,kick etc,but if you finish on a partial stroke it is OK.You just can't do 2 pulls or 2 kicks in a row.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  5. #825
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Hey, fellow Frogs, I bought a new waterproof camera and now have some underwater footage of my breaststroke. Any constructive criticism and advice would be most appreciated. Breastroker, I would be curious to hear any feedback you might have. Meanwhile, King Frog and Jim Rude, you know I appreciate your suggestions! (Jim, I keep trying to work on keeping my head more still, but it doesn't appear as if I succeeded...)

    Here are the underwater footage links:
    Front view: http://youtu.be/fVZoNUcA7UY
    Back view: http://youtu.be/43cSr_ekzcM
    Turn: http://youtu.be/Wnkrqzq2pls


    Topside footage:
    Front view: http://youtu.be/uvFuvn3aoNY
    Side view: http://youtu.be/5_iZxgfkLQc

    Thanks, Frogs!
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    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  6. #826
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Hey, fellow Frogs, I bought a new waterproof camera and now have some underwater footage of my breaststroke. Any constructive criticism and advice would be most appreciated. Breastroker, I would be curious to hear any feedback you might have. Meanwhile, King Frog and Jim Rude, you know I appreciate your suggestions! (Jim, I keep trying to work on keeping my head more still, but it doesn't appear as if I succeeded...)

    Here are the underwater footage links:
    Front view: http://youtu.be/fVZoNUcA7UY
    Back view: http://youtu.be/43cSr_ekzcM
    Turn: http://youtu.be/Wnkrqzq2pls


    Topside footage:
    Front view: http://youtu.be/uvFuvn3aoNY
    Side view: http://youtu.be/5_iZxgfkLQc

    Thanks, Frogs!
    Your pull is very deep.Is that a function of your shoulder problem? If not it may make it worse as it is a mechanically disadvantageous position.The general recommendation is too keep your elbows as close to the surface as possible.Can you keep your elbows near the surface? If so it would help your timing and power and maybe put less stress on your shoulders.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  7. #827
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Your pull is very deep.Is that a function of your shoulder problem? If not it may make it worse as it is a mechanically disadvantageous position.The general recommendation is too keep your elbows as close to the surface as possible.Can you keep your elbows near the surface? If so it would help your timing and power and maybe put less stress on your shoulders.
    My coach had recommended a deeper pull thinking it would require more work of my chest muscles and take some of the strain off my shoulders and neck. It has been awhile since I tried breaststroke with my elbows closer to the surface. Perhaps it will be fine for me, now that I have a stronger upper body overall. I will give it a try and see how it works for me. Thanks!
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    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  8. #828
    Here to keep it real JimRude's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Hey, fellow Frogs, I bought a new waterproof camera and now have some underwater footage of my breaststroke. Any constructive criticism and advice would be most appreciated. Breastroker, I would be curious to hear any feedback you might have. Meanwhile, King Frog and Jim Rude, you know I appreciate your suggestions! (Jim, I keep trying to work on keeping my head more still, but it doesn't appear as if I succeeded...)

    Here are the underwater footage links:
    Front view: http://youtu.be/fVZoNUcA7UY
    Back view: http://youtu.be/43cSr_ekzcM
    Turn: http://youtu.be/Wnkrqzq2pls


    Topside footage:
    Front view: http://youtu.be/uvFuvn3aoNY
    Side view: http://youtu.be/5_iZxgfkLQc

    Thanks, Frogs!
    My two cents:

    - your kick is much better than I recall it being before, but notice how at the conclusion of a kick, before initiating the next kick, your feet drop down. Try to keep your heels at or near the surface between kick cycles.

    - ditto on Allen's comments on the arm pull

    - you are diving down with each arm cycle, which creates a lot of frontal resistance. Try to keep your arms and hands near the surface at the end of each cycle - shoot your arms forward, not down(!). The video of a BR swimmer on Dr. G's website has a great side view of this - look at the BR avi file here.
    This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man - ha ha!

  9. #829
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by JimRude View Post
    My two cents:

    - your kick is much better than I recall it being before, but notice how at the conclusion of a kick, before initiating the next kick, your feet drop down. Try to keep your heels at or near the surface between kick cycles.

    - ditto on Allen's comments on the arm pull

    - you are diving down with each arm cycle, which creates a lot of frontal resistance. Try to keep your arms and hands near the surface at the end of each cycle - shoot your arms forward, not down(!). The video of a BR swimmer on Dr. G's website has a great side view of this - look at the BR avi file here.
    So, it sounds like everything needs to stay closer to the surface! I think what is messing me up is my attempt to get more of a wave style breaststroke going. I do the 2 fly/2 breast drill where I alternate swimming two of each stroke to get more of a wave-like motion in my breaststroke. But, it sounds like it is actually hurting my stroke more than helping it. Do you think I would be better suited to a flatter stroke and just try to keep my arms and feet closer to the surface? I can't seem to get the wave feel without my arms or feet ending up too deep.

    Edit: I just looked over my underwater fly video and I am doing the same thing; diving down with each arm cycle: http://youtu.be/TMFmU_RS9hE
    How do I break this rotten habit in both of my strokes? I think forward when I am swimming, but it's obviously not working!

    Thanks for the help, Jim!
    Last edited by ElaineK; July 13th, 2012 at 10:41 AM.
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  10. #830
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    So, it sounds like everything needs to stay closer to the surface! I think what is messing me up is my attempt to get more of a wave style breaststroke going. I do the 2 fly/2 breast drill where I alternate swimming two of each stroke to get more of a wave-like motion in my breaststroke. But, it sounds like it is actually hurting my stroke more than helping it. Do you think I would be better suited to a flatter stroke and just try to keep my arms and feet closer to the surface? I can't seem to get the wave feel without my arms or feet ending up too deep.

    Edit: I just looked over my underwater fly video and I am doing the same thing; diving down with each arm cycle: http://youtu.be/TMFmU_RS9hE
    How do I break this rotten habit in both of my strokes? I think forward when I am swimming, but it's obviously not working!

    Thanks for the help, Jim!
    I have this problem too sometimes.Don't force the wave action,it should come as a natural result of raising your torso when you breath and then snapping it down as you recover.A drill that was recommended to me on this thread is to recover with your thumbs up with the ends of your thumbs breaking the surface.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  11. #831
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I have this problem too sometimes.Don't force the wave action,it should come as a natural result of raising your torso when you breath and then snapping it down as you recover.A drill that was recommended to me on this thread is to recover with your thumbs up with the ends of your thumbs breaking the surface.
    OK, K.F., I'll give that a try. Thanks!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  12. #832
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Is anyone looking at the Olympics? All the other talk is boring, we breaststrokers need to look at how the best breaststrokers swim.

    I have long thought Cameron Van der Burg would eventually win the mens 100 breaststroke. First he developed speed, breaking the world record for the 50 breast in 2009. Then he developed more endurance and GUTS.

    It takes big ones to go out the first 50 only one tenth slower than his 50 M world record. He went 26.67 in the 50 in 2009, almost the same time this Olympics going out in the 100 meters.

    Will be interesting to see Rebeca Soni and the new 15 year old girl in the womens 100 meters. Rebeca has the speed to go out faster than she did in the semi's and the 200 endurance to come back. Either way it will take a sub 1:05 to win it. Maybe a new world record too.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  13. #833
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I am still confused about the dolphin kick after start and push-offs. I noticed a lot of BR swimmers kick before pull-out. Seems it is allowed....

  14. #834
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    101.2.3
    Kick—After the start and after each turn, a single butterfly (dolphin) kick, which must be followed by a breaststroke kick, is permitted during or at the completion of the first arm pull, following which, all movements of the legs shall be simultaneous and in the same horizontal plane without alternating movement.
    The feet must be turned outwards during the propulsive part of the kick. A scissors, flutter or downward butterfly (dolphin) kick is not permitted except as provided herein. Breaking the surface of the water with the feet is allowed unless followed by a downward butterfly (dolphin) kick.
    2012 U.S. Masters Swimming Rule Book


    Could some of the br-dolphin kick offenders do it accidentally?

  15. #835
    Very Active Member philoswimmer's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by dolu View Post
    I am still confused about the dolphin kick after start and push-offs. I noticed a lot of BR swimmers kick before pull-out. Seems it is allowed....
    Someone posted this in the other thread:

    http://swimswam.com/2012/07/illegal-...ststroke-swim/

    This doesn't look accidental to me!

  16. #836

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Obvious offenders need to have their results disqualified on review. Otherwise why have rules, if they're not enforced?

    Further, I don't see any ambiguity in the language of the rule, where dolphin kicks performed long before the armpull begins could possibly be construed as permissible.

  17. #837
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Making a dolphin kick as soon as you hit the water is almost impossible for the ref.to see without underwater video,which is why we need video review.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  18. #838
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Making a dolphin kick as soon as you hit the water is almost impossible for the ref.to see without underwater video,which is why we need video review.
    Agree...but only for cases involving breaststroke stroke infractions.
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  19. #839
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I haven't seen the Men's 200 BR yet,but I'm really looking forward to it.Whenever you see it really watch Gyurta's stroke.Every time I have seen him I have been impressed at how fast he gets into streamline for the kick after the pull.I assume he continues that stroke today.Getting into streamline early for the kick is important and he is the best I have ever seen
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  20. #840
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I haven't seen the Men's 200 BR yet,but I'm really looking forward to it.Whenever you see it really watch Gyurta's stroke.Every time I have seen him I have been impressed at how fast he gets into streamline for the kick after the pull.I assume he continues that stroke today.Getting into streamline early for the kick is important and he is the best I have ever seen
    Gyurta had a killer swim, I was also super impressed with Michael JAMIESON swim & his 32.62 last 50.

    1 05 GYURTA Daniel 2:07.28 WR - +
    Time Rank Split
    50 m 29.19 2 29.19
    100 m 1:01.56 2 32.37
    150 m 1:34.16 1 32.60
    Finish 2:07.28 WR 1 33.12

    2 04 JAMIESON Michael 2:07.43 +0.15 +
    50 m 29.20 3 29.20
    100 m 1:01.92 4 32.72
    150 m 1:34.81 3 32.89
    Finish 2:07.43 2 32.62


    in the 1 BR I was surprised how CVDB didn't glide after each kick,
    he immediately starts his outsweep

    Soni is remarkable, she doesn't have an insweep, she thrusts with her elbows wide.

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