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Thread: The Breaststroke Lane

  1. #1061
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I have very similar shoulder problems to you and haven't been cleared to do pulls yet.My next evaluation is 9-12,so we'll see then.I can't say how you should get back into training except ease into it.Good Luck!!!!

    Good luck at your evaluation, King Frog! Let us know what the doc says!
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    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  2. #1062
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Here are two new underwater breaststroke videos; 200 pace and 50 pace. Have at it frogs! (I do see that I am still popping my head up too soon before the separation of my hands, so I need to break that bad habit. As for my pull, this is as wide as I can go, given my shoulder limitations.)
    BORKED

    BORKED
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    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  3. #1063
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Elaine,given your shoulders,I think this looks good. Your overall timing is good.You might be able to get your knees slightly more together and your feet turned out more at the catch of the kick,but maybe not and the way you are is good.You lose a little undulation in the 50,which is something most people do,but in your case it gets your feet catching air again(but I saw a video where Kitajima caught air with his feet so you are in good company.The main thing I notice is on the pullout.You recover your arms with your elbows outside of the "shadow" of your shoulders.This increases drag.Inch your hands up keeping in contact with your body and your elbows pinned to your sides until your hands reach your chin.

  4. #1064
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Sorry for the confusion,my wife and I have identical computers and I used hers by mistake.It was I and not SealGirl who made the post.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  5. #1065
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Sorry for the confusion,my wife and I have identical computers and I used hers by mistake.It was I and not SealGirl who made the post.
    I saw "Seal Girl" and I was thinking (before I read the post), "Cool! It's been a long time since we connected. How nice for her to visit The Breaststroke Lane."

    I continued to read the post and thought to myself, "I thought Seal Girl was a distance freestyler. How did she become so knowledgeable about breaststroke? Wow, King Frog must have croaked a lot of information her way over all these years."

    By the time I finished SealGirl's post, I was impressed! She really knew her stuff!


    So, now the truth comes out. It was really you, the always reliable King Frog who came through once again. Thanks K.F.; I always appreciate your time and expertise!


    P.S. Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my pullout recovery. Somewhere along the line, I reverted back to a bad habit. My coach had suggested I cross my forearms during recovery in order to keep my elbows pinned to my side. I have long arms, so he thought this would be a more comfortable and easier way to do it, as long as I keep my arms close to my body to reduce drag. I need to concentrate on that again, now that my dislocated rib is healed enough to be able to execute a normal pullout.

    Please give my regards to SealGirl!


    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  6. #1066
    Very Active Member TRYM_Swimmer's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    New rule clarification:

    101.2.4 Turns and Finish—At each turn and at the finish of the race, the touch shall be
    made with both hands separated and simultaneously at, above or below the water level.
    At the last stroke before the turn and at the finish an arm stroke not followed by a leg
    kick is permitted.


    The previous rule change mandating a complete stroke, ended by a kick, got me DQd in a 400 IM, because I was not aware of it. This makes things much cleaner.

    Check out the other changes, going into effect TODAY.

    http://www.usms.org/rules/20130915_u...na_changes.pdf

  7. #1067
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I've always heard - as a general rule - that it helps to have big feet in swimming because of the extra propulsion you can get. I can clearly see how that could be true for the other strokes, but was wondering if it applied in the same way for breast. Does anyone know if the propulsion of the breast kick boosted by bigger "flippers?" Or might the speed of turnover actually be hampered by bigger feet - i.e., smaller feet might even be helpful in some ways?

    Not that we can do anything to change our foot size; but I've been curious why, when I'm such a bad kicker in the other three strokes, I'm relatively so much better in breast kicking. I have relatively small feet for my height, so this was one possibility I came up with. Anyone know if this has been studied?

  8. #1068
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by TRYM_Swimmer View Post
    New rule clarification:

    101.2.4 Turns and Finish—At each turn and at the finish of the race, the touch shall be
    made with both hands separated and simultaneously at, above or below the water level.
    At the last stroke before the turn and at the finish an arm stroke not followed by a leg
    kick is permitted.


    The previous rule change mandating a complete stroke, ended by a kick, got me DQd in a 400 IM, because I was not aware of it. This makes things much cleaner.

    Check out the other changes, going into effect TODAY.

    http://www.usms.org/rules/20130915_u...na_changes.pdf
    They clarified what has actually always been the rule.If you finish on the pull you have not completed the full stroke cycle,which is not illegal.You should not have been DQd.If you take 2 pulls in a row,that is illegal.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  9. #1069
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by GregJS View Post
    I've always heard - as a general rule - that it helps to have big feet in swimming because of the extra propulsion you can get. I can clearly see how that could be true for the other strokes, but was wondering if it applied in the same way for breast. Does anyone know if the propulsion of the breast kick boosted by bigger "flippers?" Or might the speed of turnover actually be hampered by bigger feet - i.e., smaller feet might even be helpful in some ways?

    Not that we can do anything to change our foot size; but I've been curious why, when I'm such a bad kicker in the other three strokes, I'm relatively so much better in breast kicking. I have relatively small feet for my height, so this was one possibility I came up with. Anyone know if this has been studied?
    Bigger feet could give more propulsion,but remember drag.goes up as the square of speed,roughly.Since for propulsion you want to generate drag with the propulsive surface,faster is better.If you can move a big foot fast,great.Ankle and knee flexibility requirements for BR and the other strokes are totally different,so what you describe is quite common.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  10. #1070
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I see, Allen - could just be more about having legs that are flexible in the right way for breast stroke, rather than anything related specifically to foot size. Thanks!

  11. #1071
    Participating Member isilver78's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Breaststroke Finish with hands separated. Your thoughts?

    A college coach here, confused by this one... As far as I can tell, the FINA/USMS interpretation is one of a kind. I have asked several officials now at our team's NCAA meets and at a few USA Swimming club meets and this is a new one for everyone. One official at a recent masters meet said that his understanding was that as long as the hands are not completely overlapped (as in a hand over hand streamline) he'd consider the rule met. But on the flip side, during a race just prior to 9/25, the official warned me that I would have been DQ'd for having my thumbs and index fingers slightly overlapped at the finish.

    So where do you all think this interpretation is coming from and what are the limits?

  12. #1072
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Does anyone know why FINA,in it's infinite wisdom,decided that we can't finish with our hands overlapping?

  13. #1073

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Allen, isilver, thank you for asking anew why one's hands must be separated (not touching) when they meet the wall in breaststroke. (Same question for butterfly.) I like to recover and streamline in breaststroke with my index fingers together along their length, and a quick thumblock. For the life of me I cannot understand how meeting the wall in this fashion would compromise the integrity of the stroke, offer an unfair advantage, constitute cheating, etc. etc. Perhaps a FINA aficionado can motivate the rule for us.

  14. #1074

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Here are two new underwater breaststroke videos; 200 pace and 50 pace. Have at it frogs! (I do see that I am still popping my head up too soon before the separation of my hands, so I need to break that bad habit. As for my pull, this is as wide as I can go, given my shoulder limitations.)
    BORKED

    BORKED
    Hi Elaine,

    You have a great breaststroke overall. There are some aspects of your stroke that can be improved, despite your shoulder limitations. I've captured screen shots to illustrate these points:

    1) It looks like your hips are lower in the water than they should be especially during your 200 pace video, which creates more drag and breaks the horizontal body line. Ideally, your body line, especially your hips, should be horizontal and closer to the surface during the breaststroke. You can see the difference between your 50 pace:

    Attachment 7958

    And your 200 pace:

    Attachment 7959

    It seems like the slower your pace is, the further your hips drop.

    2) Also, you should use the power of your hips to propel you forward by keeping them higher in the water and incorporating more of an undulation into your stroke.

    3) As you recognized, you are lifting your head too soon prior to beginning the pull, thus creating more resistance in the water.

    I would recommend the following drills to work on improving these aspects of your stroke:

    - Breaststroke pull with dolphin kick: Alternate one or two breaststroke pull dolphin kick strokes, followed by one or two regular strokes.

    - Scull kick : breaststroke kick, hands at your side.

    - 2 kicks 1 pull will help you work on the streamline and body position. It will also help you work on distance per stroke.

    Hope this helps! Good luck!

  15. #1075
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Thanks for your feedback, Swimspire! Unfortunately, the following error message appeared when I tried to view your attachments: "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

    Although I do the breaststroke pull with dolphin kick drill as well as breaststroke kicking without a kick board, I haven't tried them as you recommended. The variations you suggest sound good; I will give them a try.

    Thanks for taking the time to make these recommendations; it is much appreciated!
    Last edited by ElaineK; October 5th, 2013 at 08:40 PM.
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  16. #1076

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Thanks for your feedback, Swimspire! Unfortunately, the following error message appeared when I tried to view your attachments: "Invalid Attachment specified. If you followed a valid link, please notify the administrator"

    Although I do the breaststroke pull with dolphin kick drill as well as breaststroke kicking without a kick board, I haven't tried them as you recommended. The variations you suggest sound good; I will give them a try.

    Thanks for taking the time to make these recommendations; it is much appreciated!
    Hmm, not sure what happened with the screen shots...I'll try to send them to you in a PM.

    Hope the drill variations will help!

  17. #1077
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Swimspire View Post
    Hi Elaine,

    You have a great breaststroke overall. There are some aspects of your stroke that can be improved, despite your shoulder limitations. I've captured screen shots to illustrate these points:

    1) It looks like your hips are lower in the water than they should be especially during your 200 pace video, which creates more drag and breaks the horizontal body line. Ideally, your body line, especially your hips, should be horizontal and closer to the surface during the breaststroke. You can see the difference between your 50 pace:

    Attachment 7958

    And your 200 pace:

    Attachment 7959

    It seems like the slower your pace is, the further your hips drop.

    2) Also, you should use the power of your hips to propel you forward by keeping them higher in the water and incorporating more of an undulation into your stroke.

    3) As you recognized, you are lifting your head too soon prior to beginning the pull, thus creating more resistance in the water.

    I would recommend the following drills to work on improving these aspects of your stroke:

    - Breaststroke pull with dolphin kick: Alternate one or two breaststroke pull dolphin kick strokes, followed by one or two regular strokes.

    - Scull kick : breaststroke kick, hands at your side.

    - 2 kicks 1 pull will help you work on the streamline and body position. It will also help you work on distance per stroke.

    Hope this helps! Good luck!
    Looking at the tapes again,I agree with swimspire that your hips get a little low in the 200 pace.It looks to me,however that the main problem is that in the arm recovery,you are angling down with your hand instead of shooting them directly forward.Your body follows your hands getting the hips a little low.This is a problem I frequently have.The best drill I know for that is recover with your thumbs up, keeping the ends of your thumbs out of the water.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  18. #1078
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Swimspire View Post
    Hi Elaine,

    You have a great breaststroke overall. There are some aspects of your stroke that can be improved, despite your shoulder limitations. I've captured screen shots to illustrate these points:

    1) It looks like your hips are lower in the water than they should be especially during your 200 pace video, which creates more drag and breaks the horizontal body line. Ideally, your body line, especially your hips, should be horizontal and closer to the surface during the breaststroke. You can see the difference between your 50 pace:

    Attachment 7958

    And your 200 pace:

    Attachment 7959

    It seems like the slower your pace is, the further your hips drop.

    2) Also, you should use the power of your hips to propel you forward by keeping them higher in the water and incorporating more of an undulation into your stroke.

    3) As you recognized, you are lifting your head too soon prior to beginning the pull, thus creating more resistance in the water.

    I would recommend the following drills to work on improving these aspects of your stroke:

    - Breaststroke pull with dolphin kick: Alternate one or two breaststroke pull dolphin kick strokes, followed by one or two regular strokes.

    - Scull kick : breaststroke kick, hands at your side.

    - 2 kicks 1 pull will help you work on the streamline and body position. It will also help you work on distance per stroke.

    Hope this helps! Good luck!
    Looking at the tapes again,I agree with swimspire that your hips get a little low in the 200 pace.It looks to me,however that the main problem is that in the arm recovery,you are angling down with your hand instead of shooting them directly forward.Your body follows your hands getting the hips a little low.This is a problem I frequently have.The best drill I know for that is recover with your thumbs up, keeping the ends of your thumbs out of the water.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  19. #1079

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Looking at the tapes again,I agree with swimspire that your hips get a little low in the 200 pace.It looks to me,however that the main problem is that in the arm recovery,you are angling down with your hand instead of shooting them directly forward.Your body follows your hands getting the hips a little low.This is a problem I frequently have.The best drill I know for that is recover with your thumbs up, keeping the ends of your thumbs out of the water.
    If you think about it, however, aiming your hands slightly downward will actually cause your hips to pop up closer to the surface. What you see in the video is your attempt to compensate for your lower hip position by angling your arms downward to come in line with your hips. In addition, it might be your shoulder limitations that are coming into play here - this is why it is better to focus more on your hips as opposed to your arms in terms of adjusting your stroke for now. The most important thing is to make small, incremental changes in your stroke- and if it hurts, be sure to stop.

  20. #1080
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Suggestions from fellow froggers: I have knee pain (inner knee, left only) when I BR kick. What sort of exercises should I be doing to strengthen the muscles supporting that part of the knee? I do have tight hamstrings and inner thighs / groins

    Also, when you froggers K, do you squeeze your glutes at the end of your K? I noticed that I do not actively engage those muscles when I kick BR, and my PTherapist thinks doing so would help with my knee pain. But when I do actively use them, I feel like my legs fatigue faster.

    After about a 2-month hiatus from training due to shoulder injury incurred from a car accident, caused by a pickup truck running a red light and T-boning / totalling our Pilot, I am back in the water - thanks to effective PT! Yea!

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