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Thread: The Breaststroke Lane

  1. #1141
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    As stated in my answer to you a couple days ago regarding this question: "A swimmer who does the dolphin kick during a hesitation or pause in the pull must assume the additional responsibility of making sure that the separation of the hands or the additional separation of the hands is clearly observable to the official(s) of jurisdiction." See below for the compete text of that answer.

    The initiation of the breaststroke pull requires an observable separation of the hands. The separation of the hands has to be “observable” by the official(s) of jurisdiction. If the hands are already separated upon leaving the wall (or after the start), there must then be another observable separation of the hands prior to the single dolphin kick.

    However, getting back to the actual language of the rule, it reads “…a single butterfly (dolphin) kick…is permitted during or at the completion of the first arm pull,…”. “During…the…pull” means that the swimmer is pulling when doing the butterfly kick. Of course, the swimmer can opt to do the butterfly kick at the completion of the first arm pull.

    A swimmer who does the dolphin kick during a hesitation or pause in the pull must assume the additional responsibility of making sure that the separation of the hands or the additional separation of the hands is clearly observable to the official(s) of jurisdiction.

    Also remember that, overall, breaststroke is a cycle stroke, requiring the arm pull first followed by the kick.

    Kathy Casey, Chair
    USMS Rules Committee
    Kathy Casey

  2. #1142
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  3. #1143
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane


  4. #1144
    Participating Member isilver78's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    There is so much confusion about the recent rule interpretation in all forums, NCAA, USA-S, USMS, FINA, I have found that it's best to approach an official before the meet and ask what their interpretation is of both the dolphin kick timing and hands together rulings.

    I have switched my dolphin kick to the front end of the pullout and coach the same. If the kick can be initiated from the quads before the biceps separate from the head in the streamline, the body line is preserved and there is typically a gain of 2-3 yards for most swimmers. We have underwater video of many of our college swimmers racing and so we know they are doing the exact same, and legal in our mind, pullout each time. Depending on the official it is either called completely legal or they get DQ'd. It's truly an annoying situation, but still, I have yet to find an official who is unwilling to provide their interpretation prior to a meet. If there is going to be a problem, we then coach our swimmers in warmup on how to avoid the DQ.

    Our standard team line: Split hands, dolphin kick before arms separate from head and continuous movement to complete the pullout. For the turn and finish, heels of hands/thumbs can be touching but no overlap. These guidelines seem to agree with the vast majority of officials I've talked to.

  5. #1145

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    FINA provided some clarification on hands separation rule.

    Separated Hands
    ”Separated” means that the hands cannot be stacked one on top of the other . It is not necessary to see space between the hands. Incidental contact at the fingers is not a concern .
    http://www.fina.org/H2O/docs/rules/hands_separation.pdf

  6. #1146
    Participating Member isilver78's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Looking for advice on speeding up the turns. Link to a video below, I'm the Floridian (tan guy) in lane 6. This is the best race video I have and since then I've managed to drop time by increasing stroke length by about 5-10%, especially in the last 50 but I still can't seem to get time out of the turns. I'm 6'3" and 225 pounds so have a lot of mass to swing around. I've tried to apply all of the well known techniques, things that I know have worked for the swimmers I coach, but I'm looking for some new, unorthodox drills or some advice that might help. Working on flexibility too, being able to tuck my legs in is an issue.



    Thanks!

  7. #1147
    Farewell Lily smontanaro's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I couldn't really see what your left arm was doing (the one opportunity was on the second turn, but the camera angle changed to basically make your underwater actions invisible), but your right arm seems fairly extended when you carry it around, so it's going to move a bit slower than it might. Is your leg tuck and left arm drop simultaneous or more sequential? Finally, it seems a bit like you turn over more onto your back than your side (first turn, anyway).

  8. #1148
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I think the biggest issue you have is body flexibility.You are not getting in a tight ball.Your upper body especially seems too straight.This is giving you a lot more resistance to the spin of the turn.It is hard to tell in the video,but it looks like you could also get your trailing arm more bent on the recovery,keeping your hand closer to your head as you recover it.I know in workout that I tend to forget about keeping a tight ball when tired or preoccupied.I'd say get in shallow water and then work on getting into as tight a ball as you can several times.Then do a few slow turns focusing, on being as tight a ball as you can.Then do some fast ones with the same focus.Then think about it every time you do a turn in workout.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  9. #1149
    Participating Member isilver78's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Ah ha! Magic words Allen: Shallow water. I'm going to try that one, I think that will force the issue. We've got underwater cameras for the college guys, I've avoided filming myself because it's painful to watch, but I'll see if I can get some better video.

    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I think the biggest issue you have is body flexibility.You are not getting in a tight ball.Your upper body especially seems too straight.

    This is giving you a lot more resistance to the spin of the turn.It is hard to tell in the video,but it looks like you could also get your trailing arm more bent on the recovery,keeping your hand closer to your head as you recover it.I know in workout that I tend to forget about keeping a tight ball when tired or preoccupied.I'd say get in shallow water and then work on getting into as tight a ball as you can several times.Then do a few slow turns focusing, on being as tight a ball as you can.Then do some fast ones with the same focus.Then think about it every time you do a turn in workout.

  10. #1150
    Participating Member isilver78's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I could see my right arm and it does need some work. I think it may be slow getting into the streamline. It also seems to get worse with fatigue. I was watching Ben Christofel swim this weekend and in his open turns, hardly any part of his body comes much above the surface, and his turns are fast! I'm going to try to get some underwater video to see how badly the arm and body are a) out of synch and b) how much that right arm is slowing me down.

    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
    I couldn't really see what your left arm was doing (the one opportunity was on the second turn, but the camera angle changed to basically make your underwater actions invisible), but your right arm seems fairly extended when you carry it around, so it's going to move a bit slower than it might. Is your leg tuck and left arm drop simultaneous or more sequential? Finally, it seems a bit like you turn over more onto your back than your side (first turn, anyway).

  11. #1151
    Participating Member isilver78's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Here we go. I forgot I had this one on YouTube also. It's just the turns from that race in slow motion. It might show more. Laughing allowed, I laugh at myself all the time. BTW, this is a big step for me, I hate seeing myself swim on video let alone share it! It's right up there with hearing your own voice on tape.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMB30...ature=youtu.be

    Thanks!

  12. #1152

    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Here is my Your push-off and pull out blow away the competition in this film, don't lose that when correcting this minor flaw. You may want to lean more going into the turn than hitting it straight on (hopefully this is still legal ).

  13. #1153
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by isilver78 View Post
    Here we go. I forgot I had this one on YouTube also. It's just the turns from that race in slow motion. It might show more. Laughing allowed, I laugh at myself all the time. BTW, this is a big step for me, I hate seeing myself swim on video let alone share it! It's right up there with hearing your own voice on tape.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMB30...ature=youtu.be

    Thanks!
    I don't think you have anything to be embarrassed about.That was a good swim.I notice on the 1st turn you don't go as far off the wall before the pulldown as on the others.That surprised me,especially given how good the timing was on the pulldown off the start.
    Also,it was hard to see and I am not sure, but it looked like you might be bringing your elbows a little too far back on the pulls each stroke.Are your elbows going much past your shoulders? Check and see.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  14. #1154
    Participating Member isilver78's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I was happy with that race but felt there were plenty lost opportunities. A bad push into an early pullout. On the second turn/pullout I remember leading the breakout with my head and feeling the drag on my chest too. Also had a somewhat inefficient pull that had me getting "stuck" under my chest on the recovery when I got tired. I've been doing a lot of polishing this year. The 100 breast was my "3rd" event in college but I never really trained the race, just accepted what came naturally. Post shoulder surgery and a few years off I've figured out that I am now a pure breaststroke masters swimmer and have become very happy with that realization. Don't have the shoulder range of motion for fly, free or back anymore but seem to have nearly indestructible knees. So I've started putting tons of work into training the breast races. Pull outs, stroke timing, hand position, kick catch and body line have all improved a lot over the summer and I've been swimming in season times equivalent to that last shaved/tapered time at Nationals. So all is going well. Started adding the 200 to the mix this year too. A lot of practice still required for that race. Being a pure ex D1 50 sprinter, I'm used to having races very well scripted, rehearsed, ingrained. The 200 has a LOT of variables to contend with! But it's fun to study it all.

    We are fortunate enough to have four exceptional breaststrokers on our new college team (one a cousin of Hansen) and being able to analyze their four very different strokes with high quality video this year has been an eye opener. But they're all skinny, flexible and skilled, so the turns are a snap and didn't require much attention as they were already faster than the average published turn times by all reasonable metrics.

    The turns have been a real stumbling block for me personally. Hard to self coach. The shallow water suggestion helped by forcing the feet to tuck but the upper body flexibility issue was giving me grief until I noticed one other cue: head position in the turn. I've started keeping my eye's locked on my hand as it leaves the wall before my feet come up and it is forcing my upper body into a more curved posture, much lower in the water. I'm going to try to get multi angle video of some turns tomorrow to see if there is a significant difference with just that change. I'm sure there will be other issues evident. If the video is usable I'll try to post it if you all want to try and pick on me a little (which is all good! ).

    I'll check my catch and elbow position on the insweep too.

    Thanks!

  15. #1155
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane



    Looking for advice for my breaststroke. I'm primarily a sprinter and does best in 50m and 100m.

    I'm doing 34-35s for 50m atm and I know I'm capable of much better. Any advice will be great! (:

  16. #1156
    Very Active Member robertsrobson's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Looking for advice for my breaststroke. I'm primarily a sprinter and does best in 50m and 100m.

    I'm doing 34-35s for 50m atm and I know I'm capable of much better. Any advice will be great! (:[/QUOTE]

    I couldn't see exactly where the video started (so how far you swam) but I counted somewhere in the region of 26/27 strokes. That's very high. I think that there are two related issues - stroke length and timing.

    You are not getting the benefit of being in the streamline position at the end of the stroke. Although you are sprinting, you still need to make sure that you are not counteracting your kick by pulling too quickly, both by over-revving and failing to get purchase on the water, and by creating an oppositional force. At the beggining of the clip it's OK, but becomes more pronounced later.

    I've always been taught to make sure that the kick is finished before you pull. Now, I think that sprinters overlap more, but it is a very advanced technique to manage that. I'd start by slowing it down, taking as few strokes per length as you can and gradually working your way back up. Take your times for each length and you will get a good indication of where you get the best balance of speed and efficiency. For me, that's around 8-9 strokes in a 25m pool. Anything above that, I'm not getting any additional speed from adding strokes, but it will be different for different people.

    The next thing that I'd suggest is that you try to focus on body position. You have a nice still head, but I don't think that you ever really get into a straight body position. This is in part a timing issue, but when you slow it down, make sure that you shoot the arms forward and create a straight plane. I once saw a useful video that suggested treating each stroke as if it was the last in the length - really reach forward and allow your head to (in a controlled way) tuck in between your arms. Check Cameron van der Burgh out (towards the end of the video):

  17. #1157
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    I agree with Robert. Also,you don't seem to be getting enough power from your pull.It appears you are leading with your elbows.Additionally the pull is very narrow.Think like EVF,but a little wider.As a result of the timing issue Robert described you are swimming"up hill". With a wider pull and more insweep you will be more able to use your undulation to get over your bow wave and get into a more streamlined position for your kick.

  18. #1158
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I agree with Robert. Also,you don't seem to be getting enough power from your pull.It appears you are leading with your elbows.Additionally the pull is very narrow.Think like EVF,but a little wider.As a result of the timing issue Robert described you are swimming"up hill". With a wider pull and more insweep you will be more able to use your undulation to get over your bow wave and get into a more streamlined position for your kick.
    What do you mean by leading with elbows? Am I dropping my elbows too early (before I complete my insweep)?

  19. #1159
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Ng Yang Theng View Post
    What do you mean by leading with elbows? Am I dropping my elbows too early (before I complete my insweep)?
    No,you aren't getting your elbows up over your hands early in the stroke"like reaching over a barrel".
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    No,you aren't getting your elbows up over your hands early in the stroke"like reaching over a barrel".
    Instead I'm initiating the insweep by pulling my elbows back instead?

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