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Thread: The Breaststroke Lane

  1. #101
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by jonblank View Post
    Agree that breaststroke is mighty, but disagree that it's the slowest stroke. You've obviously never seen my backstroke. JB
    Point well taken! Not only have you NOT seen my backstroke; my fly and back are BOTH slower than my breaststroke!

  2. #102
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Watch some video of Rebecca Soni.Her pull is not narrow like yours has to be but she has practically no insweep and is blazing fast.If she can do it so can you,just really focus in getting everything from your pull that you can without hurting yourself but also use your kick and timing and you'll be fine.
    Thanks, Allen! I just finished watching every Rebecca Soni video on You Tube and saved one to my playlist. What a beautiful stroke! I wish I could watch it in slow motion to see the fine points of her stroke. Can you recommend anything like that?

  3. #103
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Here is another tip:Shoot your hands FORWARD on the recovery ,not up and especially not down.It doesn't matter if your hands are above the surface,at the surface or under it,the important thing is that they are in line with the body as you streamline.Many people(myself included all too often) angle their arms down to increase undulation.Just like moving the arms up and down in SDK to increase undulation it is not only unnecessary it breaks streamline and slows you down.
    Great point, Allen.


    What helps me is to do 'thumb drill'. Since I recover with my palms facing each other, I extend my thumbs so that they break the surface of the water. If they don't then I know my hands are not going forward in a straight line towards the opposite wall.

    One thing to be careful of tho. This drill should only be used during the intial (approx the first 50%) forward 'pop' of recovery. Do not attempt to keep the thumbs at the surface of the water all the way to full extension as this will cause you to be too shallow in your glide position. It is perfectly natural for your hands to end up 4-6 inches under the water at full extension as this is a result of your head and shoulders dropping under the surface of the water. Remember, during your glide the back of your head should be under approximately 2 inches of water.

  4. #104
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Re: turns,1st ,this should go without saying,but always turn with 2 hands,this is a corollary to the"train like you race or you'll race like you train" rule.
    2nd,while I know some really fast swimmers grab the gutter I recommend that the average masters swimmer not.The most common turn error I see is grabbing and twisting to try and get back on your stomach faster.This just slows you down.You want to get into a ball and roll backwards with the only twisting motion from jerking back the elbow on your leading arm which is followed by recovering the other arm out of the water near your head(as I have heard coaches say"elbow the robber,call the cops."It is of course OK to use the gutter for leverage to speed the rotation of your turn as the trailing arm pushes to help you spin around,just don't grab and don't twist(as I say,"roll like a ball,don't twist like a screw."
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  5. #105
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by pwolf66 View Post
    Great point, Allen.


    What helps me is to do 'thumb drill'. Since I recover with my palms facing each other, I extend my thumbs so that they break the surface of the water. If they don't then I know my hands are not going forward in a straight line towards the opposite wall.

    One thing to be careful of tho. This drill should only be used during the intial (approx the first 50%) forward 'pop' of recovery. Do not attempt to keep the thumbs at the surface of the water all the way to full extension as this will cause you to be too shallow in your glide position. It is perfectly natural for your hands to end up 4-6 inches under the water at full extension as this is a result of your head and shoulders dropping under the surface of the water. Remember, during your glide the back of your head should be under approximately 2 inches of water.
    I tried this today and it helped- thanks, Paul!!

  6. #106
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    You want to get into a ball and roll backwards with the only twisting motion from jerking back the elbow on your leading arm which is followed by recovering the other arm out of the water near your head(as I have heard coaches say"elbow the robber,call the cops."It is of course OK to use the gutter for leverage to speed the rotation of your turn as the trailing arm pushes to help you spin around,just don't grab and don't twist(as I say,"roll like a ball,don't twist like a screw."
    Another great tip! Thanks, Allen! You have been so helpful on this thread, so I'm glad Ande started it!

    The first time I heard, "elbow the robber, call the cops" was when I read Mastering Swimming. I cracked up, but I have never forgotten it! On a Go Swim video, the "call the cops" arm is referred to as, "saluting the referee". Hey, whatever helps to remember! I have an entire list of them now that I think about when I'm swimming and it seems to help, because I feel my breaststroke is improving. My favorite one though is yours: Elbows in front of shoulders. Thanks, Allen!

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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    while I know some really fast swimmers grab the gutter I recommend that the average masters swimmer not.
    This is especially important when the pool doesn't have a gutter!

    I am (or was) a gutter-grabber. But then I swam in the St Nick's meet (in the GA Tech pool where Nationals will be held) and discovered that my breaststroke turns were very slow in a pool that has no gutters! Since then, I have been intentionally not using the gutter in my home pool. It's a very different turn if you can't count on using your arms for some leverage, but now that I'm used to it, it's not much slower.

  8. #108
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Another problem I see frequently is with the kick.What I like to see is recover the feet by bending the knees only ,keeping the knees about 1-2 fists apart at all times until the finish of the kick when they get even closer.Bring the feet up as close to the rear as possible.Externally rotate the ankles as far as possible for the catch(ideally pointing to the edge of the pool.)Then kick back and simultaneously internally rotate the ankles so that you finish with your soles nearly facing each other and your ankles touching.The kick should almost feel like you are kicking straight back,but since your feet start out outside your knees the path is actually curved.What you don't do is to kick out and then in,nor do you recover with your knees outside of your hips.It is OK to bend slightly at the hips just before the catch for more power,but if you do too soon it breaks your streamline too much.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Good discussion. All points are important, especially turns in short course races and staying in a streamline position at all times, along with timing.

    Turns: I really don't swim faster than most of the people I compete against, but win races because I turn better than most of them (and I pretty much suck at long course). I do sets just working on turns; build towards a turn, touch 2 hands, drop elbow in turn direction towards opposite wall. The biggest mistake I see is "climbing the wall", getting too high out of the water on a turn. Stay low and rotate on your side while turning. Explode off the wall and STREAMLINE. Underwater streamline is more important in breaststroke than any other stroke.
    Then comes breath control. It is essential to extend the streamline as far as possible at race speed, which is actually easier than swimming other than having to hold your breath. To work on breath control I do a set of 10 x 50yds on 1:15, 1st lap under water (no intermediate breath if possible), do a fast turn with one breath, then do your underwater pull and strong breakout, swimming the balance of the 25 at a moderate speed. Do your underwaters exactly as you would do them as a pull down and note your speed during the pull, recovery and kick by watching the bottom of the pool. You will see that when you recover your legs you may just about stop during that phase which means you may need to alter your timing or reduce drag by keeping you knees more inside of your streamline envelope (more behind the buttocks). This, along with abalone diving, helps me stay under on a streamline on that last turn while everyone else is on the surface swimming burning glycogen needed for those last few yards.

    Streamline: If I can streamline at 260 lbs, anyone can do it. Streamlining during the stroke is most important. Swimming is basically gliding between powerful strokes, so the better you are at gliding (streamlining), the faster you will swim. This means avoiding disturbing the "streamline envelope" that your body produces during swimming. Bending your knees behind your buttocks rather than below your body is a big advantage. The water behind your buttocks is already disturbed, so it makes sense that bending your knees in that area rather than letting them drop either down below your body or out to the sides reduces drag and helps you glide. Hands and elbows together on recovery also help with the streamline, as does getting under the surface tension of the water.
    Lastly, timing is strongly related to gliding. It takes much more energy to accelerate a body from a stalled position than it does from a moderate speed, so the goal is to maintain a moderate speed at the least propulsive stage of the stroke. Make sure that your kick recovery is fairly brisk and doesn't languish. Recover the kick during the insweep of the arms so that you are "loaded" when arm recovery begins. Watch the bottom of the pool or the lane rope to determine velocities during the stroke and try to "flatten" those velocity curves.

    Also: I always count strokes and do stroke count sets to remind me to get as much out of a streamline as possible. I'll do a set of 100's doing the first 25 with one more stroke than my lowest possible stroke count on a 25, then add a stroke for the next 25, then add another for the next 25, then go back one stroke for the final 25 to get help glide when you are tired. My lowest stroke count is 3 un-tapered and without the body suit, so I'll do 4 strokes, then 5, then 6, then 5 on these sets. It really helps get your stroke more efficient.

    Hope this helps

  10. #110
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Rider View Post
    Good discussion. All points are important, especially turns in short course races and staying in a streamline position at all times, along with timing.

    Turns: I really don't swim faster than most of the people I compete against, but win races because I turn better than most of them (and I pretty much suck at long course). I do sets just working on turns; build towards a turn, touch 2 hands, drop elbow in turn direction towards opposite wall. The biggest mistake I see is "climbing the wall", getting too high out of the water on a turn. Stay low and rotate on your side while turning. Explode off the wall and STREAMLINE. Underwater streamline is more important in breaststroke than any other stroke.
    Then comes breath control. It is essential to extend the streamline as far as possible at race speed, which is actually easier than swimming other than having to hold your breath. To work on breath control I do a set of 10 x 50yds on 1:15, 1st lap under water (no intermediate breath if possible), do a fast turn with one breath, then do your underwater pull and strong breakout, swimming the balance of the 25 at a moderate speed. Do your underwaters exactly as you would do them as a pull down and note your speed during the pull, recovery and kick by watching the bottom of the pool. You will see that when you recover your legs you may just about stop during that phase which means you may need to alter your timing or reduce drag by keeping you knees more inside of your streamline envelope (more behind the buttocks). This, along with abalone diving, helps me stay under on a streamline on that last turn while everyone else is on the surface swimming burning glycogen needed for those last few yards.

    Streamline: If I can streamline at 260 lbs, anyone can do it. Streamlining during the stroke is most important. Swimming is basically gliding between powerful strokes, so the better you are at gliding (streamlining), the faster you will swim. This means avoiding disturbing the "streamline envelope" that your body produces during swimming. Bending your knees behind your buttocks rather than below your body is a big advantage. The water behind your buttocks is already disturbed, so it makes sense that bending your knees in that area rather than letting them drop either down below your body or out to the sides reduces drag and helps you glide. Hands and elbows together on recovery also help with the streamline, as does getting under the surface tension of the water.
    Lastly, timing is strongly related to gliding. It takes much more energy to accelerate a body from a stalled position than it does from a moderate speed, so the goal is to maintain a moderate speed at the least propulsive stage of the stroke. Make sure that your kick recovery is fairly brisk and doesn't languish. Recover the kick during the insweep of the arms so that you are "loaded" when arm recovery begins. Watch the bottom of the pool or the lane rope to determine velocities during the stroke and try to "flatten" those velocity curves.

    Also: I always count strokes and do stroke count sets to remind me to get as much out of a streamline as possible. I'll do a set of 100's doing the first 25 with one more stroke than my lowest possible stroke count on a 25, then add a stroke for the next 25, then add another for the next 25, then go back one stroke for the final 25 to get help glide when you are tired. My lowest stroke count is 3 un-tapered and without the body suit, so I'll do 4 strokes, then 5, then 6, then 5 on these sets. It really helps get your stroke more efficient.

    Hope this helps
    Really good tips.I forgot to mention counting strokes.I count strokes every length.If my stroke count is getting less at the same speed or my speed is getting better at the same stroke count then I know I am improving.Also doing stroke count all the time means I'll do it in the race without thinking which can help cue me if I am spinning my wheels or going out too slow.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  11. #111
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    If my stroke count is getting less at the same speed or my speed is getting better at the same stroke count then I know I am improving.
    Case in point, Allen: Thanks to your advice (and the others, too), I have decreased my stroke count from 12-13 to 10-11 on the 200 breaststroke AND decreased my time (in practice) by 3 seconds. Looking at the video my husband shot, though, I have a long way to go to get my stroke to resemble what you describe in your tips!
    My streamline isn't as good as I would like it to be, because of my prior shoulder surgery. I was left with stubs for a first rib, so my left side can't streamline as well as my right side.

    The other obvious deficiency in my stroke is my kick being too wide. But, keeping my knees narrower than my hips is another RSI (repetitive stress injury) waiting to happen. I am THE most vulnerable person I know to getting RSIs! (I've had plenty and it runs in the family...)

    So, another question goes out to you and my fellow breaststrokers: I have to keep my kick wider than I would like (just like I have to keep my pull narrower than I would like...) to stay in this sport for the long haul. Otherwise, I will be an RSI mess. How much will a wider kick slow me down, all else being equal? I just wonder how much I can reasonably expect my times to improve with my physical limitations... I don't know if this question is even possible to answer, but I thought I would give it a try!

  12. #112
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Case in point, Allen: Thanks to your advice (and the others, too), I have decreased my stroke count from 12-13 to 10-11 on the 200 breaststroke AND decreased my time (in practice) by 3 seconds. Looking at the video my husband shot, though, I have a long way to go to get my stroke to resemble what you describe in your tips!
    My streamline isn't as good as I would like it to be, because of my prior shoulder surgery. I was left with stubs for a first rib, so my left side can't streamline as well as my right side.

    The other obvious deficiency in my stroke is my kick being too wide. But, keeping my knees narrower than my hips is another RSI (repetitive stress injury) waiting to happen. I am THE most vulnerable person I know to getting RSIs! (I've had plenty and it runs in the family...)

    So, another question goes out to you and my fellow breaststrokers: I have to keep my kick wider than I would like (just like I have to keep my pull narrower than I would like...) to stay in this sport for the long haul. Otherwise, I will be an RSI mess. How much will a wider kick slow me down, all else being equal? I just wonder how much I can reasonably expect my times to improve with my physical limitations... I don't know if this question is even possible to answer, but I thought I would give it a try!
    Having to keep your legs wide for the kick to avoid injury is not a disaster,especially if you don't need to do so during the recovery and can wait until the catch.Also make sure that you don't kick out as that won't decrease the strain,it will only slow you down.You have already dropped 3 sec,I expect you will drop much more.It will be fun to find out how much.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  13. #113
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Having to keep your legs wide for the kick to avoid injury is not a disaster,especially if you don't need to do so during the recovery and can wait until the catch.Also make sure that you don't kick out as that won't decrease the strain,it will only slow you down.You have already dropped 3 sec,I expect you will drop much more.It will be fun to find out how much.
    Ooops, wrong lingo! When I said "kick", I was referring to the legs part of the breaststroke. So, it would be the recovery and catch where the "whip kick" causes the problems for me. I need to keep my knees apart EXCEPT for the glide, where I make a point of touching my feet together, so I know I'm as streamlined as I can get. And, I was advised by another swimmer to not start my outsweep on the pull until my feet have touched, to make sure I don't rush my glide. What do you think?

    THANKS, ALLEN!

  14. #114
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    P.S. Allen, I'm hoping to watch you at Nationals, but it's going to be tough. For the 50br., you are in heat #8 and I'm in #11. For the 100br., you are in heat #7 and I'm in #3 (a possibility there, depending on how the two pools are running). Then, for the 200br., we're both in heat #8. Oh well...




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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    P.S. Allen, I'm hoping to watch you at Nationals, but it's going to be tough. For the 50br., you are in heat #8 and I'm in #11. For the 100br., you are in heat #7 and I'm in #3 (a possibility there, depending on how the two pools are running). Then, for the 200br., we're both in heat #8. Oh well...
    It won't be a problem, Elaine. The two courses at Ga Tech will be designated as an even heats course and an odd heats course. All of the women's heats in one event will be run in those two courses followed by all of the men's heats. So you'll have lots of time to warm down after swimming and will then be able to watch any of the men's heats.

    The only exception to this is the 1000 and 1650 Freestyle where the men's and women's events are combined into a single event for each of these two events. So for these we will seed all the men and women together in the 1000 and swim them in the two courses, even and odd heats. Then we'll seed all the men and women together in the 1650 and swim them in the odd and even courses.
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  16. #116
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    Ooops, wrong lingo! When I said "kick", I was referring to the legs part of the breaststroke. So, it would be the recovery and catch where the "whip kick" causes the problems for me. I need to keep my knees apart EXCEPT for the glide, where I make a point of touching my feet together, so I know I'm as streamlined as I can get. And, I was advised by another swimmer to not start my outsweep on the pull until my feet have touched, to make sure I don't rush my glide. What do you think?

    THANKS, ALLEN!
    I have another thought.I have twitchy shoulders and knees so I do relatively little actual BR during workout.Could you do maybe 200 total full stroke in workout and get your form right without hurting yourself?Then spend the rest of your workout doing drills and free for conditioning and feel for the water.I recommend against doing much if any BR kick by itself.It puts too much strain on the knees.I do lots of eggbeater kick,either vertical or horizontal with a snorkel.I find it gives me a great leg workout of the appropriate muscles with much less knee strain.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  17. #117
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by matysekj View Post
    It won't be a problem, Elaine. The two courses at Ga Tech will be designated as an even heats course and an odd heats course. All of the women's heats in one event will be run in those two courses followed by all of the men's heats. So you'll have lots of time to warm down after swimming and will then be able to watch any of the men's heats.

    The only exception to this is the 1000 and 1650 Freestyle where the men's and women's events are combined into a single event for each of these two events. So for these we will seed all the men and women together in the 1000 and swim them in the two courses, even and odd heats. Then we'll seed all the men and women together in the 1650 and swim them in the odd and even courses.
    That's great news, Jim, thanks! Hey, by the way, you sure are a nice hubby to Anna Lea. (If you didn't catch her comment about you, she'll have to fill you in... )

    At least I KNOW I won't have any problems catching up with Anna Lea at the meet, since we're in the same heat!

  18. #118
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I have another thought.I have twitchy shoulders and knees so I do relatively little actual BR during workout.Could you do maybe 200 total full stroke in workout and get your form right without hurting yourself?Then spend the rest of your workout doing drills and free for conditioning and feel for the water.I recommend against doing much if any BR kick by itself.It puts too much strain on the knees.I do lots of eggbeater kick,either vertical or horizontal with a snorkel.I find it gives me a great leg workout of the appropriate muscles with much less knee strain.
    OK, let me see how it goes in the pool tomorrow. Thanks for the suggestion! I don't have a snorkel and our pool is only five feet deep, but I'll see what I can do. I will have to experiment with the knees. I feel it immediately if they are in too close, so at least I'll get instant feedback!

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    Very Active Member Jimbosback's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Rider View Post
    Also: I always count strokes and do stroke count sets to remind me to get as much out of a streamline as possible. I'll do a set of 100's doing the first 25 with one more stroke than my lowest possible stroke count on a 25, then add a stroke for the next 25, then add another for the next 25, then go back one stroke for the final 25 to get help glide when you are tired. My lowest stroke count is 3 un-tapered and without the body suit, so I'll do 4 strokes, then 5, then 6, then 5 on these sets. It really helps get your stroke more efficient.

    Hope this helps
    Wow, three strokes is awesome. I have gotten down to six, both full stroke and underwater, after pullout. I guess I have a ways to go. Pull buoy, I am down to 12, and I go 9 kicks per 25. These are all way down, but I still feel like my streamline needs work, as does the timing of my pullout.

    Tough keepping the head neutral and the legs flat when fatigue sets in. I find it helps to rotate my knees inward at the start of the kick.

  20. #120
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The Breaststroke Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I have another thought.I have twitchy shoulders and knees so I do relatively little actual BR during workout.Could you do maybe 200 total full stroke in workout and get your form right without hurting yourself?Then spend the rest of your workout doing drills and free for conditioning and feel for the water.I recommend against doing much if any BR kick by itself.It puts too much strain on the knees.I do lots of eggbeater kick,either vertical or horizontal with a snorkel.I find it gives me a great leg workout of the appropriate muscles with much less knee strain.
    Hey Allen, I took another 2 seconds off my 200 breaststroke for a total of 5 seconds off, since I started taking your advice. THANK YOU!!!

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