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Thread: The Sprint Free Lane

  1. #41
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    I don't kick with a board very often,
    i usually sit on them between sets.

    Last scy season I did a few fast 50 flutter kicks
    with a board,
    from a belly flop dive from the side,
    one stroke into the wall open turn
    wearing a full B70,
    think I went 27 on my best ones

    in college i went 28.0 a few times for a 50 kick from a push with a board

    Eddie Reese told me
    Ian Crocker kicked a 50 scy in 24.6 from a push and
    Garrett Weber Gale during 2008 Olympic Training Camp after trials kicked 50 LCM in 27.3 believe it was with a board, not sure how he started or what sort of suit he wore.

    Shaun Jordan did a 50 kick with a board from a dive in 23.3 right before or after NCAAs in the early 90's

    Gary Hall was a very fast kicker and could kick a 100 scy around 55, think Crocker did a 100 in 54


    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Crikey - 8 more seconds...?!? I know you dive and flip w/the board sometimes Ande -
    what about from a push and one stroke at the turn?
    Don't say 27 or I'm drivin' to Austin.

  2. #42
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    So what's the goal for SCM? I don't have a scy pool to work out in... 30? 33?

  3. #43
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    your goal is AFAP
    world class male swimmers or kickers can flutter kick a 50 SCM with a board under 30

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    So what's the goal for SCM?
    I don't have a scy pool to work out in... 30? 33?

  4. #44
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    So if you can't kick sub 30(33)'s scm then there's probably more sprint speed on the table with kick improvement alone?

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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    your goal is AFAP
    world class male swimmers or kickers can flutter kick a 50 SCM with a board under 30

    AFAP: so the answer to my original question is... there is no upper bound or end goal for flutter kick?

  6. #46
    Very Active Member Speedo's Avatar
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    AFAP: so the answer to my original question is... there is no upper bound or end goal for flutter kick?
    I think what he's saying is that you'll need to set your own goals, and he's given you an upper bound (the elite swimmer reference).

    Here's an idea- maybe this would help. Ian Crocker went a 21.44 in the scm 50 free- that converts to a 19.21 in scy. If he's kicking a 50 scy free in 24.6, then his best kick time is approximately 28% slower than his best swim time. Let's say he met his goal here.

    Another data point. I went a 22.44 in the scy 50 free recently, and I've been hovering around 35 for my best kick time. So my best kick time is approximately 55% slower than my best swim time. Clearly, there is some room for improvement in my kick. If I had as good of a kick relative to my freestyle, I should be going a 28.7 for a 50 kick. So there's one way to set a goal based on your specific ability.

  7. #47
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    I think what he's saying is that you'll need to set your own goals, and he's given you an upper bound (the elite swimmer reference).

    Here's an idea- maybe this would help. Ian Crocker went a 21.44 in the scm 50 free- that converts to a 19.21 in scy. If he's kicking a 50 scy free in 24.6, then his best kick time is approximately 28% slower than his best swim time. Let's say he met his goal here.

    Another data point. I went a 22.44 in the scy 50 free recently, and I've been hovering around 35 for my best kick time. So my best kick time is approximately 55% slower than my best swim time. Clearly, there is some room for improvement in my kick. If I had as good of a kick relative to my freestyle, I should be going a 28.7 for a 50 kick. So there's one way to set a goal based on your specific ability.
    Sweet, i'll use that formula then. I don't think i'm too far off the 28% goal at present, but then again i never time 50 sprint kicks either so we'll see.

  8. #48
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Ok... since i rarely do sprint flutter kicks, i started with a sprint 25 flutter to see where i'm at and took about 2 min rest and kicked the 50 sprint.

    Both from a push
    25m sprint flutter with a board was 17 sec
    50m sprint flutter with a board (hand touch turn) was a 37-38 but I could tell the last quarter of the 50 was legs going numb hehe. Based on the 28% i should be at 29.5ish 50scy so 37-38 scm isn't too far off. I kinda wish i had a LCM pool to try this in since i ate my own huge waves on the turn. I'll start the flutter kick workout once a week and see where it goes from there. I can't help but think if i had taken more rest i could've gone 35-36 today... plus i was wearing two drag suits

    Where is the optimal depth for sprint kicks? It's really hard to keep the feet completely submerged. I've always been told the heels can be out but feet under the surface. Is this still correct?

    I say still because all of this stuff seems to change. Same with that video earlier... I thought the "S curve" pull on freestyle was old school?
    Last edited by fmracing; October 29th, 2010 at 03:26 PM.

  9. #49
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    I can't help but to reply to this thread!! Around here, sprinting and masters swimming are a total contradiction in terms!

    I've been blessed to have coached some amazing sprinters (5'8" M - 20.4/44.8; 6'0" F 23.0/50.7 - Both in the 1990's), and one of the things that was the most successful was a bit I "borrowed" from Richard Quick called a sprint circuit. At the time, we had the luxury of having a 6 lane pool and a diving well. We would do 4 stations that we would focus on trying to transition power on land to power on water.

    4 minutes per station, 2 or 3 X thru depending on time of the season:
    Station 1: Vasa swim bench - High as possible and max # of reps - :45 on; :15 off; :45 on; switch stations
    Station 2: Sprint widths (~15yd) - No-breathers (If fly or free) on :30. If Breast, no underwater pullouts
    Station 3: Stretch cords on land - stroke specific. Max Correct Reps per :30 - :30 on/ :30 off
    Station 4: Long Strech cords in the water - Resisted/Assisted 50's on 1:00. If you can't make it to the wall in :25, turn and sprint back!

    I've seen a few variations that some of my former swimmers who are now coaching have made to this...

    Sprinting with Ankle Weights
    Sprinting with Snorkels
    Sprinting with Boxing Gloves
    Sprinting with Buckets or Full Milk Jugs tied to ankle bands
    Sprinting with small paddles

    I think with each of these, an important component would be to tie back to the idea of what it feels like to go "au Natural" and with no gear again.

    Another concept I am taken with is the work that Mike Bottom and his crew have been doing for the past several year at Michigan/Race Club/Cal. I am just recently starting to take a deeper dive into the straight arm free and the dryland ideas they use. Seeing the way that Nathan Adrian uses that as a weapon over and over, it's hard to deny something very positive about it. Might want to take a look at what they're doing at Club Wolverine...

    FB: http://www.facebook.com/ClubWolverine
    Site: http://www.clubwolverineelite.com/Cl...Team/Home.html

    Me personally, I am still trying to channel my inner sprinter after numerous youth years at a yardage warehouse as a mid-distance freestyle/IM'er. I have possibly bulked up a bit too much, but I still think I can translate it to speed since I can still hit a low 22/high 21 at the tender age of 41.

    The piece that I very loudly agree with Ande on is the emphasis on Kicking. Notice that there is no "FINS" in "KICKING". I admit that there is a place for it with OCCASIONAL use, but most all masters swimmers I see are unable/unwilling to develop a solid kick without fins, and then have the audacity to be stunned when their times stagnate or go slower... duh!

    Don't forget to REST! Let your body build back up after breaking it down between workouts.. Go do a few easier distance workouts between sprint sessions so you have enough endurance to handle more sprinting!

    What other ideas are out there that people find helpful towards a faster sprint time???

  10. #50
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    Where is the optimal depth for sprint kicks? It's really hard to keep the feet completely submerged. I've always been told the heels can be out but feet under the surface. Is this still correct?
    Whatever makes you go fastest FM. Experiment during the kick sets.

    I am much faster when my entire foot is out of the water vs staying entirely submerged. Not being a good kicker and not being good at regularly doing kick sets, I have not found out if there is a more optimal kick height.

  11. #51
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by qbrain View Post
    Whatever makes you go fastest FM. Experiment during the kick sets.

    I am much faster when my entire foot is out of the water vs staying entirely submerged. Not being a good kicker and not being good at regularly doing kick sets, I have not found out if there is a more optimal kick height.
    This is actually a tough question.. My traditional rule of thumb is to get the tip of the heel at or just above the surface where you hear a "ripping" sound effect. I would agree that you kick "faster" with your feet out of the water - less resistance, but also less water to apply force to and propel yourself against.. Of course, a lot of this may just go right out the window when race time comes. Many sprinters have a VERY high kick that I question a bit for those exact reasons. All ties to body positioning.. If the kick is to low or high, then the body is likely in an incline or decline, and resisting position - not cool.

    On those same lines - I believe that there is propulsive force in both stages (upbeat and downbeat) of the kick and that equal importance should be paid to it. Put an equal amount of effort and force on both top and bottom (upward and downward) of the foot movements. If you're doing it right, you'll feel it in your butt, hamstrings, and calves, as well as the traditional quad stresses.

  12. #52
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Nasser View Post
    I would agree that you kick "faster" with your feet out of the water
    By faster I mean the time it takes to get from one wall to the other, not tempo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Nasser View Post
    If you're doing it right, you'll feel it in your butt, hamstrings, and calves, as well as the traditional quad stresses.
    If you are doing it right than you are faster than if you are doing it wrong. It is and should be that simple.

  13. #53
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Nasser View Post
    I can't help but to reply to this thread!! Around here, sprinting and masters swimming are a total contradiction in terms!
    The more i read posts here, the more I feel like sprinters are the outsiders. Granted I'm still stuck on the USAS side of competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Nasser View Post
    Notice that there is no "FINS" in "KICKING".
    Totally agree. I gave up the zoomers like 10 years ago because imo, fins do nothing but enforce bad habits... same with paddles.

  14. #54
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    The more i read posts here, the more I feel like sprinters are the outsiders. Granted I'm still stuck on the USAS side of competition.


    Totally agree. I gave up the zoomers like 10 years ago because imo, fins do nothing but enforce bad habits... same with paddles.
    Release the Kraken.

  15. #55
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo View Post
    Release the Kraken.
    Nah... I think all the sprint hata's stay out of threads with sprint in the name :

  16. #56
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    Nah... I think all the sprint hata's stay out of threads with sprint in the name :
    I've seen some talented sprinters avoid this stigma by calling themselves "mid-distance".



  17. #57
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    I've seen some talented sprinters avoid this stigma by calling themselves "mid-distance".
    I always preferred "long sprints" :P

  18. #58
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Update:

    Inconclusive so far.

    Two weeks with one sprint kick workout each week and I timed a 50 scm sprint flutter from a push (one hand touch turn) with board last night at the same 37-38 seconds as two weeks ago. Should I be sprint kicking laying with elbows on the board? Does it matter how you hold the board for sprint kick speed? Seems unnatural to do hold it only with the hands extended out and the head down.

  19. #59
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Nasser View Post
    This is actually a tough question.. My traditional rule of thumb is to get the tip of the heel at or just above the surface where you hear a "ripping" sound effect. I would agree that you kick "faster" with your feet out of the water - less resistance, but also less water to apply force to and propel yourself against.. Of course, a lot of this may just go right out the window when race time comes. Many sprinters have a VERY high kick that I question a bit for those exact reasons. All ties to body positioning.. If the kick is to low or high, then the body is likely in an incline or decline, and resisting position - not cool.
    I'm a distance swimmer trying to have some fun sprinting and I'm struggling with trying to increase my stroke rate. I've seen comments from sprinters claiming that their kick helps establish their stroke rate. Could it be that a high kick (while less efficient from a purely technical view) is preferred by sprinters because it allows for a higher stroke rate?

  20. #60
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    Re: The Sprint Free Lane

    Technically, kicking is a very simple motion. If you don't have flexible ankles and large feet however, you might struggle with it.

    Want to know if you have "flexible" ankles? Point your toe as much as you can. Is the angle created by the top of your foot and your lower leg greater than 180 degrees, equal to 180 degrees or less than 180 degrees? If you can get it past 180, congratulations you have flexible ankles. If you can get to 180 you have slightly flexible angles, certainly not stiff. If you can't get your toe point to 180 degrees you are going to have a lot of trouble kicking fast. A former gymnast friend of mine has such terrible ankle flexibility she can't do a full squat without almost falling over. She has trouble getting much past maybe 120 degrees.

    What can you do to make your ankles more flexible? First of all this stuff should be done with great care, you can do serious damage to ligaments when you stretch your ankles. The simplest way to stretch ankles is to sit down with your knees bent and toes pointed, so that your heels are under your butt. The weight of your body will do the work for you.

    If you have flexible ankles already and try adding in a foam roller. Place the foam roller under your toes and the end of your foot and again let your body do the work.

    Another method that I personally used my freshman year of college is to soak your feet and ankles in hot water for 10 minutes or so prior to stretching. If you do this be gentle with the stretches, I have seen a swimmer sprain an ankle doing this stuff.
    "The cure for everything is... saltwater, the ocean, sweat and tears"

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