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Thread: The Butterfly Lane

  1. #801
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Jim, I am in awe of flyers that can do your type of sets. I am. I am out of breath after every significant set. I do not know how you guys do that, but I really want to be in that group (and I am trying!).

  2. #802
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by dinicti View Post
    Jim, I am in awe of flyers that can do your type of sets. I am. I am out of breath after every significant set. I do not know how you guys do that, but I really want to be in that group (and I am trying!).
    there are 2 things that are required to do fly:
    1) timing
    2) strength/endurance
    if you dont have the strength/endurance to keep your timing...you die
    if you dont have the timing it doesnt matter how much strength/endurance you have...you will die
    when you lose either you go vertical and its "game over man, game over!
    Last edited by sunruh; December 11th, 2017 at 09:32 PM.

  3. #803
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    I remember my first 50 LCM fly. I died with 15m to go - in a 50! lol

  4. #804
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by sunruh View Post
    there are 2 things that are required to do fly:
    1) timing
    2) strength/endurance
    if you dont have the strength/endurance to keep your timing...you die
    if you dont have the timing it doesnt matter how much strength/endurance you have...you will die
    when you lose either you go vertical and its "game over man, game over!

    Steve...I agree...the other part I think plays a role is as we age is "core strength". When the core dies, the legs die, then the arms die and you go vertical. as I age I am trying to do more core strength training a 2-3 days a weeks.

  5. #805
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsauer View Post
    Steve...I agree...the other part I think plays a role is as we age is "core strength". When the core dies, the legs die, then the arms die and you go vertical. as I age I am trying to do more core strength training a 2-3 days a weeks.
    jim, would you care to share what you do for your core work?

    somehow i dont think my blue bell ice cream core workout is doing the trick!

  6. #806
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by sunruh View Post
    jim, would you care to share what you do for your core work?

    somehow i dont think my blue bell ice cream core workout is doing the trick!
    Steve,
    anytime...I have a gym set up in my garage!

  7. #807
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Thanks. I am pretty sure my timing can be fine-tuned to relax during the arm/chest in the water, but my strength/endurance isn't too bad (especially relative to other strokes). I have been working on this for 2 yrs (granted I started from near beginning as I haven't swam since HS). It is okay, as I am slowly improving as I am now swimming 12-14k yards/wk. vs. <10 k before joining Masters.

  8. #808
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    The other issue maybe I am not breathing enough. I do one breath and then no breath. For a 50 or 75 that is fine (at practice, perhaps at a meet that will be okay for a 100), but when I turn to go from 75, I fatigue and feel short-of-breath (SOB)--unless I go slow, 100 yds 1:14 slow. I also feel SOB when I try to do B-fly sets in a normal training interval manner--I need more rest than the prescribed rest time.

    So, I will try to do sets where I breathe more frequently 2 breaths and then no breath. Will see.

  9. #809
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    I am humbly placing a couple of 50 yd. fly videos; quality of video isn't (I have to work on it) great, but hopefully viewable. I am still trying to improve getting my head down before arms, relaxing my hands and arms as they enter, and pressing my chest more. At my Masters program, coaching has been minimal on my fly, so please be ruthless in your criticisms and comments; do not worry about hurting feelings. This is the first time I loaded something onto YouTube (pretty darn easy). Thank you in advance.

    https://youtu.be/tXcJDlYvCMU
    https://youtu.be/ALfTl8km9Ug

  10. #810
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    sorry to say but the camera angles and lighting are so poor that cannot really tell anything in your 2 videos

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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by dinicti View Post
    I am humbly placing a couple of 50 yd. fly videos; quality of video isn't (I have to work on it) great, but hopefully viewable. I am still trying to improve getting my head down before arms, relaxing my hands and arms as they enter, and pressing my chest more. At my Masters program, coaching has been minimal on my fly, so please be ruthless in your criticisms and comments; do not worry about hurting feelings. This is the first time I loaded something onto YouTube (pretty darn easy). Thank you in advance.

    https://youtu.be/tXcJDlYvCMU
    https://youtu.be/ALfTl8km9Ug
    I canít swim fly as well as you so am not one to make any kind of constructive criticism, but Iíd be surprised if your coach would say anything other than Ďgood jobí.

  12. #812
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Thank you Arrieros. I will try to get a better video, Sunruh. At minimum in early March when I do my first meet in over 3 decades.

  13. #813
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Recent articles by Terry Heggy on our USMS site on Butterfly, Top Half and Bottom Half. The first one, link is: http://www.usms.org/articles/article...y.php?aid=3423
    It has a section on squeezing shoulder blades to assist arm recovery (I copy/pasted the relevant portion below). I do not quite get the usefulness of this drill, does anyone understand and think it is useful?
    Start with a squeeze

    As you initiate your arm recovery, squeeze your shoulder blades together to lift the arms, rather than forcing your shoulders to do all the work.

    • DrillóFloat face-down in the water with both arms at your hips and then squeeze your back to slowly swing your arms across the water into the forward catch position (without kicking). Youíll find that a good shoulder blade squeeze will enable a relaxed recovery without forcing you to levitate out of the water.

  14. #814
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by dinicti View Post
    Recent articles by Terry Heggy on our USMS site on Butterfly, Top Half and Bottom Half. The first one, link is: http://www.usms.org/articles/article...y.php?aid=3423
    It has a section on squeezing shoulder blades to assist arm recovery (I copy/pasted the relevant portion below). I do not quite get the usefulness of this drill, does anyone understand and think it is useful?
    Start with a squeeze

    As you initiate your arm recovery, squeeze your shoulder blades together to lift the arms, rather than forcing your shoulders to do all the work.

    • DrillóFloat face-down in the water with both arms at your hips and then squeeze your back to slowly swing your arms across the water into the forward catch position (without kicking). Youíll find that a good shoulder blade squeeze will enable a relaxed recovery without forcing you to levitate out of the water.
    Great article, thanks for bringing that up. I canít figure out a way to subscribe to those posts. I will have to try the drill next time I get in the water.

  15. #815
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    If you guys want a better butterfly take note of Ella Eastin doing a 1:49.5 at PAC 12 CHAMPIONSHIPS.

  16. #816
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    The Butterfly Lane

    Hi everyone! I started to swim nearly 2 years ago, almost exclusively freestyle. I recently started to try to learn fly just to have some variety to my workout. However, i can barely complete a stroke (with both arms) so just to practice the rhythm, iím doing single armed drills.
    Nonetheless, i really would like to be able to complete a full butterfly stroke with both arms. Whenever i do attempt it, I find it so hard to finish my pull. When my arms reach somewhere under my midsection, thatís where i experience the most pressure from the water which seem to be slowing down my pull. During this phase, it sometimes feel like iím pulling through mud (for lack of any better description i can think of). By the time i do complete the pull near my hips, my upper torso seem to have already gone down. And maybe because of this, iím unable to get a clean recovery and instead have my arms wading through water during the recovery.
    Any tips that you can share so i can be able to accelerate my arms through the latter part of the pull? Any drills which you think can help me with it?
    Sorry if I donít have any videos - but i do hope you guys get the picture.
    Thanks in advance for your help!
    Last edited by boom_digs; March 28th, 2018 at 02:13 AM.

  17. #817
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by boom_digs View Post
    Hi everyone! I started to swim nearly 2 years ago, almost exclusively freestyle. I recently started to try to learn fly just to have some variety to my workout. However, i can barely complete a stroke (with both arms) so just to practice the rhythm, iím doing single armed drills.
    Nonetheless, i really would like to be able to complete a full butterfly stroke with both arms. Whenever i do attempt it, I find it so hard to finish my pull. When my arms reach somewhere under my midsection, thatís where i experience the most pressure from the water which seem to be slowing down my pull. During this phase, it sometimes feel like iím pulling through mud (for lack of any better description i can think of). By the time i do complete the pull near my hips, my upper torso seem to have already gone down. And maybe because of this, iím unable to get a clean recovery and instead have my arms wading through water during the recovery.
    Any tips that you can share so i can be able to accelerate my arms through the latter part of the pull? Any drills which you think can help me with it?
    Sorry if I donít have any videos - but i do hope you guys get the picture.
    Thanks in advance for your help!
    When I teach Fly....to my summer league team...I always have them use fins to start out. I start with basic drills, kick with a board, kick with hands at their sides, Kick Fly on their back, Kick Fly underwater with Streamline, then add in 1 arm stroke RT and LT, then drill with alternating arms. Try drills with Fins as what you are after is getting the motion and then the timing. Once you have done drills try putting it all together...again the above is all with Fins. Once you feel that that is easier, do the drills without fins and put all together.

    This approach has worked well for me teaching my summer leaguers how to swim fly!

  18. #818
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsauer View Post
    When I teach Fly....to my summer league team...I always have them use fins to start out. I start with basic drills, kick with a board, kick with hands at their sides, Kick Fly on their back, Kick Fly underwater with Streamline, then add in 1 arm stroke RT and LT, then drill with alternating arms. Try drills with Fins as what you are after is getting the motion and then the timing. Once you have done drills try putting it all together...again the above is all with Fins. Once you feel that that is easier, do the drills without fins and put all together.

    This approach has worked well for me teaching my summer leaguers how to swim fly!
    Thanks for the tips jimsauer! Maybe my timing and motion is still off. Iíll try to work on more drills with fins. Never really bothered to work with fins before so this might be an opportune time to buy a pair.
    Makes me think though, when is it the right time to do the first kick? I see in most videos that during the pull, thereís the 1st kick, and a 2nd kick right when the arms enter the water after recovery. But whatís confusing to me is at what point during the pull phase should the 1st kick occur? Should this be during the initial phase of the pull (when the head exits the water for the breath) or during the latter phase just before the arms exit the water? Sorry, this might be all too natural for most flyers but your perspectives would really give me a good idea of what i should be thinking about when learning the stroke. Thanks so much for the help!

  19. #819
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Boom-Digs,

    This is gonna be a complete stab in the dark.

    First - For now, don't even think about when or how to kick - except to keep your toes pointed.

    Next - Fly is best swum with your focus on the position of your shoulders relative to your hips. It is called short axis rotation. If you do this right, the kick takes care of itself. Most people who struggle with fly have not figured out how the shoulders and hips should be positioned during the stroke cycle. I suspect that as you start to pull, you are performing the pull (actually a push) from your shoulders and your shoulders are going down at the same time your arms are going down. This is exactly the opposite of what you want. It leads to very late breathing and plowing along - mostly underwater.

    Next - if this is your problem, to change to the correct positioning, when you start your pull, lift your head upward and keep your head up throughout the pull and most of the recovery. Yes, this will cause your hips to drop. More importantly, it keeps your shoulders higher than your hips which is the correct position. Over-exaggerated - Yes! Future adjustments to fix - Yes. Once you get comfortable with this, you and your coach(s) can start the fine tuning process.

    Fins can be helpful if you have the basic stroke rhythm. If you are pushing your shoulders down to get your arms to pull, fins will not correct this - only help you go faster which might reinforce the incorrect rotation.

    As I said - a complete stab in the dark without video to confirm or deny.

    Good Luck

    Paul

  20. #820
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Boom-Digs,

    This is gonna be a complete stab in the dark.

    First - For now, don't even think about when or how to kick - except to keep your toes pointed.

    Next - Fly is best swum with your focus on the position of your shoulders relative to your hips. It is called short axis rotation. If you do this right, the kick takes care of itself. Most people who struggle with fly have not figured out how the shoulders and hips should be positioned during the stroke cycle. I suspect that as you start to pull, you are performing the pull (actually a push) from your shoulders and your shoulders are going down at the same time your arms are going down. This is exactly the opposite of what you want. It leads to very late breathing and plowing along - mostly underwater.

    Next - if this is your problem, to change to the correct positioning, when you start your pull, lift your head upward and keep your head up throughout the pull and most of the recovery. Yes, this will cause your hips to drop. More importantly, it keeps your shoulders higher than your hips which is the correct position. Over-exaggerated - Yes! Future adjustments to fix - Yes. Once you get comfortable with this, you and your coach(s) can start the fine tuning process.

    Fins can be helpful if you have the basic stroke rhythm. If you are pushing your shoulders down to get your arms to pull, fins will not correct this - only help you go faster which might reinforce the incorrect rotation.

    As I said - a complete stab in the dark without video to confirm or deny.

    Good Luck

    Paul
    Hi Paul, sorry for not being able to provide
    any video. Admittedly, my stroke is far from being watchable even from a beginnerís standpoint - I swear i can see the lifeguardís toes cringe (from the corner of my goggles) each time he catches me attempting a stroke resembling butter-die. Heís probably wondering when heíll have to eventually jump in and perform cpr.
    Anyhow, I honestly think that you do have a very good point. My timing and motion may be completely off as I never really gave much thought on how i am pulling - if my shoulders drop while i pull, bringing my shoulders lower than my hips. This might explain why i simply cannot make a clean recovery.
    Iíll take your advice to heart and try to keep my head up during the pull and part of the recovery so as to maintain my shoulders above the hips. I really hope this fixes it.
    Iíll see if i can convince the lifeguard to hold my phone to take a video and assure him that he can drop it anytime he thinks iím close to drowning. Lol

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