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Thread: The Butterfly Lane

  1. #201
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    For all you flyers out there...here is my meet swims from today fly-extravaganza! Crazy/Psycho/!@#$ whatever... I had fun with it.



    Sunday, Jan, 23, 2011 Meet Results from Flyapalooza
    Posted January 23rd, 2011 at 05:13 PM by jaadams1


    My meet felt really good overall. Home meet at Wenatchee, had about 55 people there, but was well spaced out to give everyone plenty of rest (almost) almost...
    For being sick most of the week, I really swam quite well.

    200 Free Relay here - just swam a 50 (26 sec. or so) moderate speed (relays in our area are of no major importance other than scoring points toward the cumulative LMSC scoring champs for the duration of the season, so our home meet usually gets lots of points.

    200 Fly - 2:07.71 = This is the fastest I've gone since college days, and I finally got my age group LMSC record that I've been stalking for a while. The computer had a problem and wasn't able to get the splits posted on results, but I was told I went out in a 1:00 for the first 100. It felt really strong, and after finishing I gave the big fist pump in the air. I think I beat all the 200 free entries later in the meet with my time also.

    200 Medley Relay - 50 Fly (25.7)

    100 Fly - 57.39 = Also, the fastest I've done in Masters...someone said I was out in a 26.7 at the 50, so I guess it was 30.6 coming home...not bad, wanted to see a 56 though.

    200 Mixed Medley Relay - 50 Fly (nice and easy 15 meter dolphins off the walls both ways)

    50 Fly - 26.19 = This one was tough to get going fast enough over such a short distance. At least I beat the 50 split of my 100 earlier. I also swam it neck and neck with Lincoln Djang, and it came down to a fingernail at the end where I was 2nd overall, but still a good swim.

    100 Free - 56.27 = This was just a throwaway swim for me. It was a few minutes after the 50 fly, and I wasn't cooled down enough, so just swam it easy.

    Finally the 500 FLY - 6:11.74 = I was 2:20 at the 200 point. This was a really good swim, much easier than the 100 Free was...YES, I SAID EASIER THAN 100 FREE!!! I know you think I'm crazy, but I just settled into a pace and kept it going. Swam 3 strokes w/ breaths, 1 stroke head down. I only did 2 hand touches on the first 25, and the finish, and this was more so I could come into the walls with a double breath on the turns. BIG help.
    I ended up getting 2nd overall in the event to a girl going a 6:10. I was trying to run her down the last 100 since for some reason I was full of energy (not sure from where), but she accelerated also so as to not get beat by someone doing fly!!!

    Going to sleep well soon.

  2. #202
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Great job James!

  3. #203
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Here's a fly set that I've used different variants of in recent weeks. If you're trying to get in 1000 fly in a workout, this is a good way to do it without allowing your technique to break down. The set by itself is only 900 fly since I get in some fly during warmup and usually some more during an aerobic IM set.

    4 x 75 fly @ cruising pace on 2:00
    100 easy
    6 x 50 fly cruise down, sprint back w/big amplitude on 1:20
    100 easy
    12 x 25 fly w/ 12 SDK off every wall, sprint every other 25 on :40
    100 easy

    You can tweak the intervals, the number of reps, and the focus of each set to suit your purposes. This set lets me practice different speeds and practice changing speeds during a swim. There's enough recovery that I can complete this set even when feeling lousy, like I did this morning.

  4. #204
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Today I had less time than usual to get in a swimming workout. I decided to get in as much fly as I (reasonably) could. So I dropped my usual backstroke, freestyle, and IM work and just did a fly set after warmup. Without all that other stuff to tire me out before the fly set, I figured I would kick things up a notch.

    3 x 100 fly, sprint the 2nd 50 on 2:30
    100 easy
    4 x 75 fly, sprint the 3rd 25 on 2:00
    100 easy
    7 x 50 fly, sprint the 2nd 25 on 1:15
    100 easy

    Wow, that seemingly minor change to the set posted above really made a big difference. I found myself loafing the first 25 of each 50. Well... is it possible to loaf above anaerobic threshold? If it is, then I was.

  5. #205
    Very Active Member thewookiee's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    6 x 50 fly cruise down, sprint back w/big amplitude on 1:20

    :
    Why the big amplitude? Seems like too much up and down motion would bad for fly

  6. #206
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by thewookiee View Post
    Why the big amplitude? Seems like too much up and down motion would bad for fly
    "cruise" for me means horizontal fly, breathing every other stroke, trying to conserve energy. "big amplitude" for me means a more vertical fly, big kick, breathing every stroke. The latter is faster for me, but I can't maintain it for a whole 200. I've tried. Twice. Piano, both times. But what I've figured out since then is that I can use both techniques in a 200. I swam a 200 SCM fly a couple weeks ago where I switched from horizontal to vertical at the 150 mark. My splits were something like 34.0, 37.1, 37.9, 36.1. Clearly went out too slow and should have switched earlier than the 150. Last weekend I swam a 200 SCY fly where I switched at the 125. My splits were 30.41, 33.73, 33.46, 33.15. That's better but I was still out too slow. I'm still figuring this out. I've also been messing around in practice with a horizontal fly combined with a big kick. That might be the ultimate winner, but it's too early to say.

  7. #207
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    "cruise" for me means horizontal fly, breathing every other stroke, trying to conserve energy. "big amplitude" for me means a more vertical fly, big kick, breathing every stroke. The latter is faster for me, but I can't maintain it for a whole 200. I've tried. Twice. Piano, both times. But what I've figured out since then is that I can use both techniques in a 200. I swam a 200 SCM fly a couple weeks ago where I switched from horizontal to vertical at the 150 mark. My splits were something like 34.0, 37.1, 37.9, 36.1. Clearly went out too slow and should have switched earlier than the 150. Last weekend I swam a 200 SCY fly where I switched at the 125. My splits were 30.41, 33.73, 33.46, 33.15. That's better but I was still out too slow. I'm still figuring this out. I've also been messing around in practice with a horizontal fly combined with a big kick. That might be the ultimate winner, but it's too early to say.
    I'm still all about the "take it out under a minute and see what you're made of" technique. Last time I didn't quite get under a 1:00, but still finished strong at a 2:07. Hopefully I'll look good again at Lake Wash. meet when you can witness it!! Breathing on a 3/1 or 2/1 pattern works well for me.

  8. #208
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    I'm bravely jumping back into the butterfly lane to start "Project 200 Fly" This will begin on Tuesday and finish towards the end of June at a LCM meet. I would rather do my first one (in years) SCY, but that's the way it goes.

    Now I've said it, there's no going back

    I had a pretty solid meet the last 2 days and the fly was feeling good (again, at long last!) even on the final length of the random 100IM and lengths 3&4 of the random 200 IM.

    Over the next few weeks, I'll try and work up to some of That Guy's fly sets
    30something and way too young for my times

  9. #209
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    I'm bravely jumping back into the butterfly lane to start "Project 200 Fly" This will begin on Tuesday and finish towards the end of June at a LCM meet. I would rather do my first one (in years) SCY, but that's the way it goes.

    Now I've said it, there's no going back

    I had a pretty solid meet the last 2 days and the fly was feeling good (again, at long last!) even on the final length of the random 100IM and lengths 3&4 of the random 200 IM.

    Over the next few weeks, I'll try and work up to some of That Guy's fly sets
    Go Go Go! But work up to it slowly. I hurt myself in 2009 by trying to do too much, and I already had a decent base of fly to work with at that time. One whole training cycle (SCM season) was basically wasted. I've found that the sets I've been posting lately are less likely to cause injury because... uh... I haven't injured myself lately

  10. #210
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Go Go Go! But work up to it slowly. I hurt myself in 2009 by trying to do too much, and I already had a decent base of fly to work with at that time. One whole training cycle (SCM season) was basically wasted. I've found that the sets I've been posting lately are less likely to cause injury because... uh... I haven't injured myself lately
    Will do
    Last year I started back with a good mix of IM work and I have been working on my endurance lately in preparation for the 500 free I swam on Saturday. Since the new year I started incorporating more fly and less IM into my workouts, but still doing mostly free. The idea is to now replace some of that freestyle yardage with fly.

    What % of total workout would you recommend working up to on fly (or is the answer 100% )? I have been doing typically 4500yds 2 x per week, split approx 800 free warm up, 800-1200 Fly & IM mix, 2000-2400 free, 500 sprint work & cool down.

    Thanks
    30something and way too young for my times

  11. #211
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    Will do
    Last year I started back with a good mix of IM work and I have been working on my endurance lately in preparation for the 500 free I swam on Saturday. Since the new year I started incorporating more fly and less IM into my workouts, but still doing mostly free. The idea is to now replace some of that freestyle yardage with fly.

    What % of total workout would you recommend working up to on fly (or is the answer 100% )? I have been doing typically 4500yds 2 x per week, split approx 800 free warm up, 800-1200 Fly & IM mix, 2000-2400 free, 500 sprint work & cool down.

    Thanks
    I race the 200 fly about as often if not more than That Guy, but I don't train with as my % of fly in my day to day workouts. I try to train primarily for mid-distance free, and an IM base for workouts. Some days I may not have any more than 100 yards of fly, other days I may hit 800-1000 (these are with an avg. of 3000-3500 yards per workout).
    I also like to go for more endurance type training with my fly rather than all race-paced stuff. I'll do things like 5 x 100 @ 1:30, building from a 100 free on the first, substituting a 25 fly on each consecutive 100 until by the 5th one you're at a 100 fly. Or doing sets like 150s, where you alternate by 50s: fly, free, fly.
    Biggest thing is try not to lose control of your stroke. When you feel like you're falling apart...slow down the interval to get more rest. Nothing like trying to swim with an anchor tied around your waist.

  12. #212
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    Will do
    The idea is to now replace some of that freestyle yardage with fly.

    Thanks
    Following jaadams1 and That Guy's lead, I have started logging fly yards this year. It makes me consciously choose to do fly on some of the stroke sets and the yardage builds up surprisingly fast. I feel a lot stronger in fly sets and I am able to maintain my stroke longer.

    That being said, two years ago I started working on my breaststroke because I thought my shoulders would keep me from swimming fly any longer. I have a previous shoulder injury and if I do too many yards or too much fly or back, I lose stabilization in my left rotator cuff and get a lot of pain. So I would suggest that you take it easy as you progress. In his butterfly video, Richard Quick suggests that you only do fly sets where you maintain your form. I think this makes a lot of sense.

    Finally, while I think this is a great goal, I think I will be content to never swim another 200 fly.

  13. #213
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by jaadams1 View Post
    I also like to go for more endurance type training with my fly rather than all race-paced stuff.

    Biggest thing is try not to lose control of your stroke. When you feel like you're falling apart...slow down the interval to get more rest. Nothing like trying to swim with an anchor tied around your waist.
    I take the exact opposite approach of James: I do only race pace fly or perfect technique fly and not that much of it. You can train free for fly to a large extent. But then, like no200fly, I'm not entering the 200 fly. Just contemplating doing 100% of a workout fly, Louise, makes me shudder. Even if you have no shoulder problems, I would still advise building up fly endurance very very gradually. And swimming sloppy fly is just not worth it, as other have pointed out. Maybe instead of focusing so much on full stroke fly yardage, you could also include some dolphin kicking. After all, this is a leg driven stroke.

  14. #214
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    !. butter fly
    2. butter struggle
    3. butter ugly


    the 3 stages of fly for most swimmers!!!!!!!!

  15. #215
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I take the exact opposite approach of James: I do only race pace fly or perfect technique fly and not that much of it. You can train free for fly to a large extent. But then, like no200fly, I'm not entering the 200 fly. Just contemplating doing 100% of a workout fly, Louise, makes me shudder. Even if you have no shoulder problems, I would still advise building up fly endurance very very gradually. And swimming sloppy fly is just not worth it, as other have pointed out. Maybe instead of focusing so much on full stroke fly yardage, you could also include some dolphin kicking. After all, this is a leg driven stroke.
    My race pace for a 200 fly = easy pace fly

    Way back I ended up doing mixed fly/free to train for the 200 and ended up so shattered I lost my stroke - a bit like this really:

    Quote Originally Posted by orca1946 View Post
    !. butter fly
    2. butter struggle
    3. butter ugly


    the 3 stages of fly for most swimmers!!!!!!!!
    Now I have the luxury of setting my own workout and usually having my own lane, so no excuses to skimp on fly. Also plenty of scope for rest as needed, and to set longer intervals (not trying to keep up with the freestylers) plus the ability to do kick and drills correctly at a steady pace. Do not worry people - I have every intention of building up gradually!

    I had a couple of compliments on my fly this weekend, which gave me the confidence that I can do this again - and stroked my ego nicely
    30something and way too young for my times

  16. #216
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    What % of total workout would you recommend working up to on fly (or is the answer 100% )? I have been doing typically 4500yds 2 x per week, split approx 800 free warm up, 800-1200 Fly & IM mix, 2000-2400 free, 500 sprint work & cool down.

    Thanks
    I would recommend no change to your warmup or your cooldown. Slowly increase the amount of fly that you do in the other sections of your workout. As far as ratio goes, today was 40% fly for me (2500 yards, 1000 fly). For the last 52 weeks overall, I'm at 26.6% fly (yes I have all kinds of nerdy stats). So if you do approach 100%, tell me what it's like because I've never done anything like that

  17. #217
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    I would recommend no change to your warmup or your cooldown. Slowly increase the amount of fly that you do in the other sections of your workout.
    Good, good, I wasn't planning to change those drastically, just shift some of that free out of the middle into fly and/or IM

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    As far as ratio goes, today was 40% fly for me (2500 yards, 1000 fly). For the last 52 weeks overall, I'm at 26.6% fly (yes I have all kinds of nerdy stats). So if you do approach 100%, tell me what it's like because I've never done anything like that
    Today I did 1400 fly, mostly drill and kick, out of 4800, so thats about 30% and feel fine! Over the past 6 weeks I have been doing around 6-900 fly drill/kick work per session already. I dropped a stroke per length last week too

    I started out with 50s fly today and the plan is to up that distance by 25yd every 2 weeks or so over the next 3 months reaching 200yds just in time for the outdoor 25m pool to open, whereby I'll be doing 200m. I'll likely drop the number of reps though. 100% fly workout doesn't actually appeal.
    30something and way too young for my times

  18. #218
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    Today I did 1400 fly, mostly drill and kick, out of 4800, so thats about 30% and feel fine! Over the past 6 weeks I have been doing around 6-900 fly drill/kick work per session already. I dropped a stroke per length last week too
    Great job! When I said "slowly increase" I meant week-by-week, month-by-month, or even year-by-year. But it does sound like you've been building a base. I guess we need to wait and see if you post "owwwwwwwwwww" tomorrow.

  19. #219
    Very Active Member chowmi's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I take the exact opposite approach of James: I do only race pace fly or perfect technique fly and not that much of it. You can train free for fly to a large extent. But then, like no200fly, I'm not entering the 200 fly. Just contemplating doing 100% of a workout fly, Louise, makes me shudder. Even if you have no shoulder problems, I would still advise building up fly endurance very very gradually. And swimming sloppy fly is just not worth it, as other have pointed out. Maybe instead of focusing so much on full stroke fly yardage, you could also include some dolphin kicking. After all, this is a leg driven stroke.

    Yet another example of why me & Fort should be workout partners. I too do not believe in anything but fast fly - either all out sprint or strong 50's. My fav set is 100's - 50 free/50 fly on a long rest interval, easy swim in between. SCM; start at holding 1:15 and work down to 1:10 or faster (ie, a strong free time). So you aren't cruising the first 50; you still have to go out sub 35 in order to bring it home for that 50 fly.

    Another fav set is the broken 100's
    100 straight (no more than 10 sec over your 100 time)
    50 10 sec 50
    50 10 sec 25 5 sec 25
    4 x 25 5 sec subtract 15 you should be at or under your 100 time

    And for you die hards that like fly fly and more fly
    and actual annual challenge set we did once or twice a year in college
    13 x 200's
    fast on 1, 4, 7, 10 and 13 at race speed if possible, but no holding back on #1.
    easy on 2x200's in between
    interval is total elapsed time of 2:30, 3, 3:30
    i held 2:15's on the 5 x 200 flys. college time was a 2:06. hey people! here's an aggie joke: how do you make a 200 flyer? take the 1500 swimmer and the 50 swimmer and have them train the 200 fly! no kidding!
    i would probably modify this set to 50's or do 10 x rounds, do the four fast as a 100/75/50/25 fly at true race speed, and easy 100's in between.

    I would focus more on drills, especially kicking drills, to create more lift and a balanced kick (ie, kick up as well as down. no one has trouble with the down. it's the up that usually isn't so good). You get the most bang for the buck here - so another way of agreeing with Fort - in other words, you don't have to get ANY stronger in the arms, but if are overall stronger in your legs, better lift, then you are able to hold the water better out in front and thus have a stronger, more efficient and effective pull.

  20. #220
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    I see that many think that because I don't type "race pace" for my fly training, that I must be swimming slow relaxed fly. This is not the case however. I do swim longer distances of fly, or mixed with fly & free, but I do swim them at a hard pace, with a shorter amount of rest, much like training distance freestyle. I may not be swimming at 95-100%, but who really can do that in practice?? I do swim fast fly too, don't think I don't...I just don't put that much emphasis on it until after the BEEP at the meets. I've had no problem with my speed in fly either, actually I can go too fast in my fly if I'm not careful. In sets, I do repeated 200s on 2:45/3:00 holding 2:25s or under at a nice controlled pace, which I don't consider race pace.

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