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Thread: The Butterfly Lane

  1. #61
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by tjrpatt View Post
    The breaststroke is just a fun/no pressure event for me.
    Same here.

  2. #62
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmj View Post
    I actually think the 100 fly is a very good test for folks. I had to swim the 200 fly at every meet in college and I never, ever enjoyed it. The piano always fell on the 3rd 50. I'm planning to tackle it soon as a masters swimmer, on my own terms, and plan to make peace with it.
    I made a solemn promise to myself, as I turned on the last 50 of my last 200 fly in college, that if I would finish with all I could manage - I would never swim another 200 fly. I feel like I owe it to myself to keep that promise. The 100 is plenty far for me.

  3. #63
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by no200fly View Post
    I made a solemn promise to myself, as I turned on the last 50 of my last 200 fly in college, that if I would finish with all I could manage - I would never swim another 200 fly. I feel like I owe it to myself to keep that promise. The 100 is plenty far for me.
    I can understand that completely. I have taken a :05 - :10 break at the 3rd turn on my first 100 fly as a master - and finished 2nd and got the team points I was going for. I'm in far better shape now, but my first 200 fly might vary well resemble 8 x 25 with :05 - :10 - and I think that's fine. I really enjoy being able to pick what races I want to swim and approach them in the way that I want to. I also saw someone set a state record in the 200 fly after taking a :15 pause at the 150. He finished. Legally.

    In college I swam the 100 & 200 fly and 500 free pretty much every duel meet, with the 200 free, 1650 free or 400 IM mixed in at other times. I still haven't done a 1650 in a race. I plan to though, as I'm doing the checkoff challenge this year.

  4. #64
    Very Active Member SolarEnergy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Seriously?!

    And the 100 fly is a "sprint"? That's an endurance event, dude. If you can do a good 100 fly, you are not just a sprinter.

    50 fly question: Does anyone do this as a no breather? Pros and cons?
    With a mere 0.1 delta between my 50 breathing a few times and 50 breathing every stroke, for me, it's kind of a no brainer. I prefer to breathe a few times, probably allows me to finish harder.

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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmj View Post
    In college I swam the 100 & 200 fly and 500 free pretty much every duel meet, with the 200 free, 1650 free or 400 IM mixed in at other times. I still haven't done a 1650 in a race. I plan to though, as I'm doing the checkoff challenge this year.
    I apparently made my coach mad before one college dual meet. He came into the team meeting before the meet and said the he was thinking of a number between 1 and 10,000 and began asking people to guess his number. I as the third person he asked and as soon as I gave my answer, he announced that I had guessed correctly. My "prize" was swimming the 1,000 the 500 and the 200 fly in the meet. I still don't know what I did to make him mad.

  6. #66
    Very Active Member swimmj's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by no200fly View Post
    I apparently made my coach mad before one college dual meet. He came into the team meeting before the meet and said the he was thinking of a number between 1 and 10,000 and began asking people to guess his number. I as the third person he asked and as soon as I gave my answer, he announced that I had guessed correctly. My "prize" was swimming the 1,000 the 500 and the 200 fly in the meet. I still don't know what I did to make him mad.
    If punishment is supposed to prevent you from doing the wrong thing again, that one wasn't very effective. I mean, if you didn't even know what you did.... I swam all the long stuff as no one else on the team was as good at it as I was. I'm actually best in the 100/200 distances but can grind out more if I need to. I had many, many meets like the one you describe as punishment. I *love* being able to pick my own events. And respect the effort that is takes to swim longer distances.

  7. #67
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by no200fly View Post
    I apparently made my coach mad before one college dual meet. He came into the team meeting before the meet and said the he was thinking of a number between 1 and 10,000 and began asking people to guess his number. I as the third person he asked and as soon as I gave my answer, he announced that I had guessed correctly. My "prize" was swimming the 1,000 the 500 and the 200 fly in the meet. I still don't know what I did to make him mad.
    I swam that combo many times. It wasn't until late in my junior year that I figured out the correct mental approach for it. You have to actually want to do it. Otherwise that short-rest 500 just becomes a survival race. Although I conquered that mental hurdle, I'm glad I don't have to swim that combo anymore

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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmj View Post
    If punishment is supposed to prevent you from doing the wrong thing again, that one wasn't very effective. I mean, if you didn't even know what you did.... I swam all the long stuff as no one else on the team was as good at it as I was.
    There were probably a lot of things it could have been for - it was the early 70s and a different time.

    I have added the 500 or 1,000 to a few recent meets and I think it is kind of fun to plan a longer race.

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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    I swam that combo many times. It wasn't until late in my junior year that I figured out the correct mental approach for it. You have to actually want to do it. Otherwise that short-rest 500 just becomes a survival race. Although I conquered that mental hurdle, I'm glad I don't have to swim that combo anymore
    Luckily, that was my only time. At that time, people swam fewer events (at least I did).

    There is a longer FlowSwimming interview with Doug Russell about the 1968 100 fly race with Mark Spitz. Doug was also a world class backstroker, but he says in the video that the 100 fly and back were considered to be an "impossible double" in 1968. Imagine that.
    Last edited by no200fly; May 9th, 2010 at 09:20 AM.

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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmj View Post
    Too darn funny! Let me know how well you do at this goal. There are many, many fast flyers who are not tall. You among them.
    A friend from high school a few years younger than I was the state's #8 finalist in Fly. She was 5' tall and looked like Smurfette next to the other girls when getting their medals. You do not have to be super tall or built to swim fly well.
    Swim hard - Tri harder

  11. #71
    Very Active Member debaru's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Vladimir Putin swimming fly in a lake:

    I would give up chocolate, but I'm no quitter.

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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    i'm far behind all of you in that my goal is to be able to race a 50 fly versus just survive it. i also agree with the poster who said that it's a great bang for the buck when it comes to workout intensity.

    on using fins - i have the aquasphere fins and think that using them helps to gain endurance. i started doing 100 with fins and then the 50 without started getting easier but i still flail a bit towards the end and i'm definitely tired.

    someone mentioned that if you do fly correctly, you won't tire out. true?

    also, will the fins be a bad thing in the long run (uh, swim) where i'm messing up the timing?

    one of my long term goals would be to swim the 400 IM. i just need to be able to master the fly.

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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    I will answer one of them:

    Quote Originally Posted by slowfish View Post
    someone mentioned that if you do fly correctly, you won't tire out. true?
    No.

  14. #74
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    I think fins take away so much from swimming butterfly. I just zoom over the water with hardly any effort- but i love butterfly.
    I have heard fins will help beginners with the rythm and keeping the hips up, but how long do you want to be dependant on them?
    If your stroke is flawed using fins to make the practice easier isn't going to correct your stroke. Because the fins make the sets easier how can you really build up endurance?

    No matter how good your stroke is you will eventually get tired swimming fly. I train for the 200 by swimming fly when I am tired. In a lot of ways it is easier because I can only focus on my technique in order to survive. I can just keep going. It doesn't mean I am not tired, but I work on training myself to perform good technique when I am tired. I guess now I just know what it feels like so it isn't so overwhelming.

  15. #75
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    At first I wasn't sure if I agreed with hedgehog, but the latter part of the post swayed me. I think fins (as well as paddles) are good tools to help with stroke, technique but should not be used as aids to get through practice.

    On a personal example, I like fly, but my technique isn't cohesive (or smooth). It needs a lot of work but I think over the next year, it could be great (with the assistance of my great coaches). We had the "opportunity" at practice last week to do a 1000 m set of IM.
    250 IM (25 Fly, 50 Back, 75 Breast, 100 Free)
    5 x 100 IM
    250 IM (25 Fly, 50 Back, 75 Breast, 100 Free)

    Going into it, my confidence was very low (how the he|| am I going to get through the Fly by the time I get to that last 250 IM?). "Take it slow and easy," I told myself and that I did. By the end of the set, I was a little tired but by no means did I allow my fly technique to suffer. I was pleasantly surprised with how I got through the set with much success.

    So, to echo hedgehog, you will only get better by practice and the fins should not be used to get through a workout (your technique will not improve).
    Swim hard - Tri harder

  16. #76
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by rdeclercq View Post
    I think fins are good tools to help with stroke, technique but should not be used as aids to get through practice.
    This is conventional wisdom. Everyone in the world repeats this like a mantra. How are you so sure it's true?

  17. #77
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Originally Posted by rdeclercq:
    "I think fins are good tools to help with stroke, technique but should not be used as aids to get through practice."

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    This is conventional wisdom. Everyone in the world repeats this like a mantra. How are you so sure it's true?
    I DEFINITELY DO NOT believe its true!
    Despise this old school thinking...

  18. #78
    Very Active Member SolarEnergy's Avatar
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by no200fly View Post
    I will answer one of them:
    Quote Originally Posted by slowfish
    someone mentioned that if you do fly correctly, you won't tire out. true?
    No.
    My opinion, Yes.
    But it will be some very slow butterfly, certainly slower than breaststroke for same energy expanded.

  19. #79
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    There's an annual meet someplace that involves a 1500 or 1650 fly, and there's the guy that swims the 5k Big Shoulders race butterfly, so it is possible to swim butterfly in a way that allows you to go a lot further than typical, but whether that is "correct" butterfly style in the sense that you would want to swim a 50 or a 100 or a 200 in that style is open to debate.

    Taking a step back, even "correct" freestyle will tire you out as you pick up the speed.

    So, I would suggest the first question is whether there is a style of butterfly that can be swum slow enough that you can swim it long distance, and the answer is clearly yes based on the Big Shoulders guy and the 1500m fliers.

    The second question is whether the same style can also be suitable for shorter distances. Solar says yes. I'm still working on it.

  20. #80
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    Re: The Butterfly Lane

    I believe I misunderstood the word "correct"
    i see how you could swim fly and keep going and going if you had the right pace and focus.

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