The Middle Distance Lane

[That Guy]

I checked out the fly lane earlier and they swim scary amounts of fly, so am sure I'll be happier here.

Sorry about that, that's my fault (not that I'm going to change anything)... as knelson noted there, you can train for a short course 200 fly with nothing more than 25's...

So what is the difference between 500 SCY and 400 SCM? .....please don't say 4 lengths or 60 yards - is it a truly different race?

Yes, it's a different race. I prefer 400 SCM free to 500 SCY free. And I prefer the 400 LCM to the 400 SCM. And prefer 400 OW over 400 LCM. You get the idea. More time focusing on stroke technique, less time spent turning.

[Muppet]

So what is the difference between 500 SCY and 400 SCM? .....please don't say 4 lengths or 60 yards - is it a truly different race?

Good question - the 4/4/5 is one of my favorites, and yes they are different, but I'm not sure I can really explain the difference.

Here is an interesting comparison between by fast 400scm time last december and my fastest 500 time this spring:

conversions in []
400 (4:29.49) [5:08.03]: 104.77 [58.03]; 109.09 [101.9]; 108.24 [101.14]; 107.39 [100.38]
500 (5:02.67) [4:24.80]: 56.14 [102.66]; 102.17 [109.39]; 102.60 [109.87]; 102.27 [109.5]; 59.49 [106.4]

[ElaineK]

I see you found the new "Smilie" (even though it's missing a face...)!

[couldbebetterfly]

conversions in []
400 (4:29.49) [5:08.03]: 104.77 [58.03]; 109.09 [101.9]; 108.24 [101.14]; 107.39 [100.38]
500 (5:02.67) [4:24.80]: 56.14 [102.66]; 102.17 [109.39]; 102.60 [109.87]; 102.27 [109.5]; 59.49 [106.4]

That's made me feel slow - I found some old results online (when I was looking for other stuff) from a 400 LCM I swam in '02 - 5.20, but I have gone 5.15 SCM

But yes - very interesting comparison. I guess I'll work up to some race-pace 500s once I'm back in routine and see how it all feels. I always felt that 400SCM was my best free event, but I would always place better in the 800 due to lack of entrants!

Then I just need to find a meet to try it out at. If not I'll be back on the fly to mix things up a bit.......but only 25s at a time, of course

[couldbebetterfly]

I'm feeling a bit lonely here, but thought I'd throw this out anyway....

I've been working on my turns and SDKs and have noticed that I come out of my turn rotated to the left, do 3 SDKs on my side, a fourth that kind of straightens me up, then I get into my stroke. Now I come out with left hand over right and my right arm pulls first - ie the one higher in the water. (I still feel slightly rotated when I first pull back)

I have sometimes pulled back with left hand first, and I don't seem to get as strong a pull, plus I have to move my left hand around my right hand as even if I know I'm going to try a left hand pull, the left hand still ends up on top.

I'm just curious as to what the rest of you do? - Or if you even think about it?

[qbrain]

I'm just curious as to what the rest of you do? - Or if you even think about it?

It is thoughtless at this point, but here is what I do. Coming out of a turn, my dominate side is down, with my dominate hand in the bottom position of the stream line. The dominate hand takes the first pull off the wall which completes the rotation.

That is also what you want to do. Coming off the wall you are going faster than you can swim, and you want to maintain that speed as long as possible. Pulling with the dominate hand allows you to maintain that speed longer and pulling with the dominate side down with the dominate hand is a natural stroke.

It sounds like your weak side is down off the turn, but you pull with the dominate hand. Try rotating the other way off the turn and leaving everything else the same. The rotation will be awkward, but the pull should feel better. If that is true, just work on your new turning side and eventually it will become comfortable.

[ande]

thought I'd bump all the lanes to the front page to encourage folks to comment in their lanes

[Swimosaur]

Counting SCM 400 Free

Last month I swam a 400 SCM free. The event was seeded fast-to-slow; I was in the first heat. There were 10 lanes in the pool. As we were mounting the blocks, I saw our 10 counters parade onto the bulkhead, carrying their lap counters. Take your marks, and away we go.

I am pretty good at counting, so I asked my buddy to dunk only laps 11, 13, and 15. I was pretty sure I had counted correctly, so I was a little surprised at the end of lap 11 -- no counter in the pool. Ok, maybe I am off, or maybe he just forgot.

End of lap 13 -- still no counter. Something's wrong. Hope my buddy didn't have a heart attack from all the excitement. I will have to count it myself. Hope I did it right! The guy in the next lane is ahead of me, so I'll stop when he does. I hope he's right too! End of lap 15, still no counter, in the middle of the sprint -- I REALLY hope I'm right! I don't have another 50 left in me after this one!

After the race, I asked my buddy what happened. He said an official had marched onto the bulkhead, after the race had already started, and declared it was illegal to count any distance less than 500 yards. So all the counters left, certainly to my surprise, and presumably to the surprise of the other 9 swimmers in the pool.

This rule is news to me. This is the 3rd 400 SCM free I've done, and for the other two (including at this same meet last year), everyone had counters, no problem.

I have two questions:

1. Is this really a rule? Are you allowed to have counters in a 400 SCM freestyle? How about 400 LCM? For safety's sake I like having a counter, but not having one won't be a problem. I'd just like to know the what rule is.

2. Um ... ahem ... what??? If the official was determined to make this call, then it would have been far better to do so before the race started, and then to make sure all swimmers understood that there would be no counters. As it was, all 10 swimmers had arranged to have a counter, so clearly all 10 swimmers thought that having a counter was legal and appropriate. Pulling the counters off the bulkhead after the race had already started is tantamount to changing the rules in the middle of the race as least as far as the swimmers were concerned. What sayest thou?

Extra for experts -- I have also been told that it's not legal to have a counter dunk some of the laps -- like 11, 13, and 15 only -- it must be all or none. Others have said this is an NCAA rule but not masters. Personally, I don't know. Any clues are welcome. Thanks!

[thewookiee]

[After the race, I asked my buddy what happened. He said an official had marched onto the bulkhead, after the race had already started, and declared it was illegal to count any distance less than 500 yards. So all the counters left, certainly to my surprise, and presumably to the surprise of the other 9 swimmers in the pool.

This rule is news to me. This is the 3rd 400 SCM free I've done, and for the other two (including at this same meet last year), everyone had counters, no problem.

The official was wrong. This is from the USMS rule book. Last time I checked, the 400 scm free was 16 lengths.


"102.10.6 Counters
A A swimmer in any individual event of 16 lengths or more, except the
individual medley, may appoint one counter to call lengths or indicate
lengths by visual sign"

[want2beafish]

Counting SCM 400 Free

Last month I swam a 400 SCM free. The event was seeded fast-to-slow; I was in the first heat. There were 10 lanes in the pool. As we were mounting the blocks, I saw our 10 counters parade onto the bulkhead, carrying their lap counters. Take your marks, and away we go.

I am pretty good at counting, so I asked my buddy to dunk only laps 11, 13, and 15. I was pretty sure I had counted correctly, so I was a little surprised at the end of lap 11 -- no counter in the pool. Ok, maybe I am off, or maybe he just forgot.

End of lap 13 -- still no counter. Something's wrong. Hope my buddy didn't have a heart attack from all the excitement. I will have to count it myself. Hope I did it right! The guy in the next lane is ahead of me, so I'll stop when he does. I hope he's right too! End of lap 15, still no counter, in the middle of the sprint -- I REALLY hope I'm right! I don't have another 50 left in me after this one!

After the race, I asked my buddy what happened. He said an official had marched onto the bulkhead, after the race had already started, and declared it was illegal to count any distance less than 500 yards. So all the counters left, certainly to my surprise, and presumably to the surprise of the other 9 swimmers in the pool.

This rule is news to me. This is the 3rd 400 SCM free I've done, and for the other two (including at this same meet last year), everyone had counters, no problem.!

The official was wrong. This is from the USMS rule book. Last time I checked, the 400 scm free was 16 lengths.


"102.10.6 Counters
A A swimmer in any individual event of 16 lengths or more, except the
individual medley, may appoint one counter to call lengths or indicate
lengths by visual sign"

Was that at the St. Nick's meet? I remember you were there, and I was in the same heat as you were for the 400 free. I had just about the same reaction as you -- I really don't need a counter for 16 lengths, but I was expecting one as I like to double check where I am from time to time. It did throw me off a bit, and I was really ticked off at my husband for a minute or two (or five). I think that officials are used to the 400 LCM, which doesn't allow counters, and aren't used to officiating SCM meets. I'm just glad I was tired by then and having a mediocre race; if I had been doing well I wouldn't have been happy about the situation!

[Swimosaur]

Was that at the St. Nick's meet? I remember you were there, and I was in the same heat as you were for the 400 free.

Yes, it was at the St. Nick's meet, and I was in the next lane. Good to see you again! Unfortunately the 400 was the last event of the day, so I was also kinda sluggish in that race. But I did have a PB earlier in the day!

Except for the curious incident with the counters, the St. Nick's meet was a very good meet -- well done, well run, and lots of fun. I would recommend it to anyone. If they have it again next year, I will certainly go!

[Chris Stevenson]

I seem to vaguely recall that USA-S passed a rule amendment that said that counters are NOT required for the 400, and that the Rule Committee recommended against USMS adopting it. But it isn't clear from the minutes and my memory of that is hazy:

http://www.usms.org/admin/minutes/rules-2010-9-18-2.pdf

Since most of the officials at USMS meets are usually USA-S officials, it may be that the rules changed for one and not the other and they didn't know that. If you really want to know, I'd suggest emailing either Charlie Cockrell (chair of the Officials Committee) or Kathy Casey (chair of the Rules Committee).

[couldbebetterfly]

This thread got me thinking and I may as well ask my question(s) now....

I have been used to swimming SCM in the UK, and sometimes we got a counter on the 400, sometimes not. And it was one of the timekeepers who did the counting with those plastic flip-over thingys. So for the 800, 1500 and 400 (when there was a counter), they would reach over and blow a whistle down your ear as you turned when you had 2 lengths to go.

Reading this, I guess things are a bit different here - would I need to provide my own counter if I entered a 500 or 1000 yd ? ( I usually count fine, but its nice to know). And is a whistle allowed, or would the counter need to dunk the board in the pool? And are the counting boards provided by the meet?

Thanks

[Swimosaur]

... would I need to provide my own counter if I entered a 500 or 1000 yd ? ... is a whistle allowed ... And are the counting boards provided by the meet?

I am obviously not the right guy to consult for the officially official interpretation of the rules, but in all the meets I've been to so far, (a) the swimmer is responsible for recruiting his or her own counter (this led to a desperate scramble for me just before the 1000 at last spring's nationals); (b) the meet officials ring a bell when the FIRST swimmer has two laps to go (but not for any of the other swimmers); (c) the counting boards are provided by the meet, you don't have to bring your own.

Also, in the US, the convention is to count UP, so a 500 would be counted 1, 3, 5, 7, ... 19 whereas I understand the convention in Europe is to count DOWN, so an SCM 800 would be counted 31, 29, 27, ... 1.

[ande]

hey couldbebetterfly

would I need to provide my own counter if I entered a 500 or 1000 yd ?
YES, ask a friend to count for you


And is a whistle allowed?
NO only refs have whistles but in masters distance events the ref rings a bell on each swimmers last lap

would the counter need to dunk the board in the pool?
YES,

And are the counting boards provided by the meet?
yes, usually they should be and now some pools offer plastic counters on sticks

[want2beafish]

Also, in the US, the convention is to count UP, so a 500 would be counted 1, 3, 5, 7, ... 19 whereas I understand the convention in Europe is to count DOWN, so an SCM 800 would be counted 31, 29, 27, ... 1.

Reminds me of our son's 500 at the state meet this year... The 500 isn't one of his favorite events, so he wanted to try something new (and presumably safely rebellious). He decided that he wanted me to count him down as opposed to up, because one of the star swimmers in his club who now swims for UGA likes to be counted down. I let the counters on either side of me know what I was doing just so they wouldn't be confused, but I probably should have told the timers on the other side of the pool too. My husband, who was timing for our son, overheard one of the other timers say, "WHAT is that woman doing? That poor swimmer!" My husband then had to explain that our son actually wanted us to count him down. It apparently worked, as our son had a PB for that swim.

[ourswimmer]

And is a whistle allowed?
NO only refs have whistles but in masters distance events the ref rings a bell on each swimmers last lap

In my experience, the only meet at which every swimmer in the heat gets a bell is Nationals. At our local meets, the only bell is for the lead swimmer in the heat.

And are the counting boards provided by the meet?
yes, usually they should be and now some pools offer plastic counters on sticks

Sometimes the pool has a set of counting boards for each lane, but sometimes they do not. Our team usually brings two, on poles so that the person counting can put the numbers in the water without sitting or kneeling on the deck. We are always happy to loan them out when we don't need them, but we have had people walk away with them thinking that they are for anyone's use, which is extremely uncool if we have a swimmer in an upcoming heat. If you did not bring your own counting cards or come with a team that did, you can almost always find a set to borrow from the host team or from another competitor, but you should not assume that you can just help yourself to a set that you see on deck.

[want2beafish]

Yes, it was at the St. Nick's meet, and I was in the next lane. Good to see you again! Unfortunately the 400 was the last event of the day, so I was also kinda sluggish in that race. But I did have a PB earlier in the day!

Except for the curious incident with the counters, the St. Nick's meet was a very good meet -- well done, well run, and lots of fun. I would recommend it to anyone. If they have it again next year, I will certainly go!

It's great to see out-of-staters come to one day meets. St. Nick's is pretty much an annual event for the local masters teams. I do wish the meet started a little earlier, but the later start makes it easier for travel. It's all good. Congratulations on your PB!

I really can't complain about my 400. My head just wasn't into it. I had 3 PBs in my first three events, and had fun to boot. And it's always a treat to swim at Georgia Tech.

[couldbebetterfly]

Also, in the US, the convention is to count UP, so a 500 would be counted 1, 3, 5, 7, ... 19 whereas I understand the convention in Europe is to count DOWN, so an SCM 800 would be counted 31, 29, 27, ... 1.

You know I never even thought about counting up/down, and now you mention it - yes I was always counted down, but I probably just ignored the particularly depressing sight of 60 on the board at the start of a 1500.

Thanks to all for the info. I just now need to hope my other half does not plan his trip to Israel to coincide with the 2 upcoming meets I'm thinking of. And find a friend to count for me

[couldbebetterfly]

After my swim this morning I have decided on the go out fast and hold on theory for my upcoming 500. Thinking way back I actually did this unintentionally the day I set my PR for the 400. It also brought back the pain and suffering it took to get there, and I now have 6+ minutes of pain to look forward to on Saturday rather than 5+.

Just needed to get that out where people might understand....

Also if there's anyone here going to the DAM meet at the weekend and can count to 20 for me (or even count 20 down to 0), it'd be much appreciated. I can count when not swimming - even to 66