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Thread: The SDK Lane

  1. #21
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    In the 100 fly I take 7-8 kicks off the walls. I breathe most strokes, though not because of the SDKs (I have just found that it doesn't slow me down). Here is a clip from the floswimming from Clovis nationals last year (I'm in lane 5):

    http://www.floswimming.org/videos/co.../234996/177507

    In the 200 fly, currently I take 6 kicks off the walls on the first 100, then 5 kicks on the second. Clovis clip (again, lane 5):

    http://www.floswimming.org/videos/co.../234996/178484

    I do more kicks on backstroke, but it isn't because oxygen debt is less of a problem: actually it is worse in backstroke than fly b/c of the flipturn. I am simply faster at SDK on my back, and I believe my butterfly swim is a little faster than my backstroke swim. Combine the two, and it makes more sense to take 1-2 fewer kicks off the walls in my fly races.

    In practices I never take fewer than 5 kicks off the wall on fly sets, no matter the distance. As Ahelee says, there is a big psychological component (though I also think there is some physiological adaptation): at this point, doing fewer than 5 kicks feels very odd to me.

  2. #22
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    there's a swimmer on my team who trumped me in the 2008 nats in austin
    his splits were

    28

    32

    36

    ...
    ...
    ...

    drum roll

    can you guess what it is


    ...
    ...
    ...

    still drumming


    ...
    ...
    ...

    ok
    here it is


    ...
    ...
    ...

    not yet

    can you guess

    ok
    I'll tell you now

    44

    28
    32 1:00
    36 1:36
    44 2:20

    I don't think he SDKed much
    he went vertical on that last 50, it was awful, painful, & somewhat hilarious to witness in a twisted sort of way

    the best way to swim any 200 is to
    not go out too hard, use easy speed & breathe
    &
    keep your 2nd 3rd & 4th splits as close to each other as possible

    don't kill yourself on the first 50
    breathe, save your legs, do gentle SDKs,

    Mike Ross told me that when he swam his 200 bk at 2008 nats in Austin
    he worked his SDK then swam easy to moderate to each turn.

    Haven't tried it yet but it seems very sensible

  3. #23
    Very Active Member SolarEnergy's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Ande thank you so much for having taken the time. I appreciate a lot.

    Chris, those were a fantastic races. If you have a blog or something, a youtube account where I could visualize several more, I would greatly appreciate.

    The winner was even stronger on SDK it appears.

    I tested the other day, 2 50m fast, 1 almost not breathing, 1 breathing every stroke (in this order). I came up with 30.85, 30.95 respectively. Therefore I agree with you on that it's not worth building up an o2 accumulated deficit.

    Damn I hate SDKing on my belly. I hate feeling that I hold my breathe when I could breathe, but I guess I am going to have to live with it. I doubt that I will ever use this in a 200 though.

    Thanks to you all, I needed to have a feel about how widespread SDK was among 200 fly swimmers. I am a bit surprised to see the huge advantage Chris got out of it over the 100, although his performance level as well as physical abilities place him closer to say, some varsity level senior swimmers, than to mere masters training 9kilo per week and not coming from an club swimming background.
    Last edited by SolarEnergy; April 29th, 2010 at 11:12 PM.

  4. #24
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by SolarEnergy View Post
    If you have a blog or something, a youtube account where I could visualize several more, I would greatly appreciate.
    I have a blog here on the USMS site. I think you can click on the link after "blog entries" under my picture to the left. I don't usually have videos taken of myself swimming, just what others have sent me. Nothing else of butterfly races that I can think of, though there are some backstroke races. I'm not sure you are interested in those.

  5. #25
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    28
    32 1:00
    36 1:36
    44 2:20
    That looks almost identical to my 200 fly split at the PNAs this year. I only dropped to a 38 the last 50 and ended with a 2:17.

  6. #26
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    28
    32 1:00
    36 1:36
    44 2:20

    he went vertical on that last 50, it was awful, painful, & somewhat hilarious to witness in a twisted sort of way
    Although this is a little off subject, would there be any benefit of actually performing this in practice as a lactate production set, by going out too fast for say, a 200, and just barely making it back? Or like attempting sets of 100's at your 25 pace and dying before you finish each
    Last edited by __steve__; April 30th, 2010 at 01:08 PM.

  7. #27
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    Although this is a little off subject, would there be any benefit of actually performing this in practice as a lactate production set, by going out too fast for say, a 200, and just barely making it back? Or like attempting sets of 100's at your 25 pace and dying before you finish each
    NO, NOT, NEVER, NEGATIVE, NOPE

    swim it in practice the way you want to race it in a meet
    swim it the way that allows you to do the best time & live to tell

  8. #28
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    This is the FASTEST 50 LCM SDK from a backstroke start that I've ever seen in person or on video, Hill Taylor

    Men 50 Meters Backstroke (final A)
    Texas Circuit #3, Austin
    Lee and Joe Jamail Swim Center
    Austin, TX, US
    Jun, 11 2009 - Jun 14 2009


    What do you think?

    Do you know of a faster one?

    (i heard Lochte SDKed 50 LCM in 22.8 at the 2008 Olympic training camp, but I'm not sure how he started & there's no video)
    Last edited by ande; April 30th, 2010 at 04:12 PM.

  9. #29
    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post

    28
    32 1:00
    36 1:36
    44 2:20

    I don't think he SDKed much
    he went vertical on that last 50, it was awful, painful, & somewhat hilarious to witness in a twisted sort of way
    OK, I've been swimming the 200 fly for a long time and have experienced that swim once or twice. It is usually the swim that convinces people never to attempt the 200 fly again.

    I SDK most of the 200 on a diminishing track, 10,8, 5, 5, 3, 3, 3 in short course. I get a good push off anyway, so the fewer kicks don't hurt much.

    The secret of swimming a good and pain free 200 fly is simple. The first 50 should feel like you are holding back, control gone mad, almost. After that, each 50 is a buildup of effort, trying to descend each. The most important thing of all, remember to exhale while your face is in the water. My best splits for a 200 fly have my last 50 being the second fastest. This accomplishes two things: a) you are stimulated to swim faster because you know that you have only 50 left, and b) the other swimmers near by feel worse yet when they see you accelerate near the end of the race.
    Release the Kraken!

  10. #30
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    OK, I've been swimming the 200 fly for a long time and have experienced that swim once or twice. It is usually the swim that convinces people never to attempt the 200 fly again.
    ...
    This accomplishes two things: a) you are stimulated to swim faster because you know that you have only 50 left, and b) the other swimmers near by feel worse yet when they see you accelerate near the end of the race.
    I've carried my share of pianos too. They make me go back and train harder.

    You can give the appearance of acceleration in the 200 fly just by maintaining speed. Pretty much everyone else slows down. If you jump out ahead of me in the 200 fly, I don't worry about it too much. You're either better than me or you're on a suicide mission. I'll find out soon enough

    To make this post relevant to the thread topic, I'll add that by taking more SDK's, I take fewer strokes. Seems logical to use the bigger leg muscles as much as possible and save the smaller arm muscles.

  11. #31
    Very Active Member SolarEnergy's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    Although this is a little off subject, would there be any benefit of actually performing this in practice as a lactate production set, by going out too fast for say, a 200, and just barely making it back? Or like attempting sets of 100's at your 25 pace and dying before you finish each
    Wow, spot on the main topic of next season's researches. I want to test systematic usage of train to exhaustion, or systematic failure so to speak, for threshold, max o2 peak and anaerobic capacity systems.

    The approach you describe doesn't correspond to a lactate production set though, it's a lactate tolerance set. A lactate production or anaerobic power set consists of producing as much lactate as possible, read reaching the fastest speed possible over a duration that is short enough so that you don't need to tolerate this lactate for more than a few seconds. Typically, a 50m corresponds better to this description.

    Two things. Your body will adapt to this sort of situation, by learning (asap) to better handle this precious energy source (lactate). In the same time though, the high levels of H+ (as well as other corrosive ions) will have a detrimental effect to the structures being exposed to them. Also, when you are almost swimming at vertical (fly) as a result of ridiculously high levels of acidosis, you are taxing the nervous system big time. Because whilst this is occurring, your brain will try to send even stronger electrical signals.

    The question is : will the benefit outweigh the downside?

    I don't have an answer at this time. Ande may be right, and the answer may vary between individuals.

    I am sure that a lot of people could be swimming faster, if only they were trying harder to swim faster when they're given the opportunity to swim fast.

    It is my case. My bests this season over 50,100 and 200 definitely suggests that I carry this fear of being trapped in the hurt box for too long. I need to break this pattern. I need to start too fast and try to bring it back home anyway, too see what my real limits are. But that's me.
    Last edited by SolarEnergy; April 30th, 2010 at 06:18 PM.

  12. #32
    Very Active Member SolarEnergy's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    Seems logical to use the bigger leg muscles as much as possible and save the smaller arm muscles.
    I agree here. This is an other benefit of SDKing. First, you end up giving less strokes. Less strokes = less upper body acid buildup.

    If only we could be as fast at the surface whilst breathing (no arms)....

  13. #33
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    I SDK most of the 200 on a diminishing track, 10,8, 5, 5, 3, 3, 3 in short course.
    I think it is worth experimenting with different SDK strategies in a race. My instinctive strategy -- which may not be best -- is to try to keep them as close as possible throughout the race. In the 100 fly that means 8-9 kicks off each wall (usually 10 off the start) and in the 100 back that means 11 kicks off each wall (usually 9-10 off the start). In the 100 back, those numbers take me out to almost 15m. If I fall off in number it will be on the last wall (eg, sometimes I only make it out to 9-10 in the 10 back) due to fatigue/burning legs.

    In the 200 back, I can't make it to 15m on every wall, at least not at race pace. I'll usually start with 7 kicks for the first 100 and then settle on 6 for the 2nd 100. In 200 fly, like I said, it is 6 and 5.

    But I once did a 200 back where I reversed it: did 5-6 kicks going out and then added 1-2 kicks off the walls of the last 100. I did this because I was feeling slightly ill and wanted to conserve my energy; I ended up negative-splitting the race (unusual for me) and had a very nice swim. My best 200 SCM backstroke in the last few years, in fact.

    So I wonder if "back-loading" the SDKs is a worthwhile strategy to consider. Seems to work for Phelps on that last wall in many races...

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    To make this post relevant to the thread topic, I'll add that by taking more SDK's, I take fewer strokes. Seems logical to use the bigger leg muscles as much as possible and save the smaller arm muscles.
    I've heard this statement echoed many times, including from some very successful distance flyers. IMO, I think it is more complicated than "saving your arms." In butterfly, everything is connected: if my legs die, then I'm going to sink and go slower, no matter how fresh my arms are.

    Plus, as you say, the legs are bigger muscles, presenting a greater oxygen demand.

    Basically, I think there is a happy medium, and every person needs to find it.

    Quote Originally Posted by SolarEnergy View Post
    Wow, spot on the main topic of next season's researches. I want to test systematic usage of train to exhaustion, or systematic failure so to speak, for threshold, max o2 peak and anaerobic capacity systems.

    The approach you describe doesn't correspond to a lactate production set though, it's a lactate tolerance set. A lactate production or anaerobic power set consists of producing as much lactate as possible, read reaching the fastest speed possible over a duration that is short enough so that you don't need to tolerate this lactate for more than a few seconds. Typically, a 50m corresponds better to this description.

    Two things. Your body will adapt to this sort of situation, by learning (asap) to better handle this precious energy source (lactate). In the same time though, the high levels of H+ (as well as other corrosive ions) will have a detrimental effect to the structures being exposed to them. Also, when you are almost swimming at vertical (fly) as a result of ridiculously high levels of acidosis, you are taxing the nervous system big time. Because whilst this is occurring, your brain will try to send even stronger electrical signals.

    The question is : will the benefit outweigh the downside?

    I don't have an answer at this time. Ande may be right, and the answer may vary between individuals.

    I am sure that a lot of people could be swimming faster, if only they were trying harder to swim faster when they're given the opportunity to swim fast.

    It is my case. My bests this season over 50,100 and 200 definitely suggests that I carry this fear of being trapped in the hurt box for too long. I need to break this pattern. I need to start too fast and try to bring it back home anyway, too see what my real limits are. But that's me.
    Lactate tolerance sets -- and a subset of these, "race-pace" sets -- are critical to swimming fast. I do a lot of these, but I never ever do them as just mentioned: basically, sprint as fast as you can and try to hold on. I never race that way, why would I want to practice that way? Plus as you die, your mechanics will degrade horribly and you don't want to gain bad habits.

    There are many ways to do lactate-tolerance sets that will give you the desired physiological adaptations without resorting to the "sprint until you die, then keep swimming" repeats.

    A couple interesting links to short articles:

    http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid.html (challenges the theory that acidification is reason that muscles "seize up" as LA concentration increases)

    http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lact...intervals.html (most swimmers don't need to be sold on the benefits of interval training, but still interesting)

  14. #34
    Very Active Member swimmj's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    NO, NOT, NEVER, NEGATIVE, NOPE

    swim it in practice the way you want to race it in a meet
    swim it the way that allows you to do the best time & live to tell
    That was exactly my gut reaction. Swimming fly when you stroke starts to fall apart is not helpful.

  15. #35
    Very Active Member SolarEnergy's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    why would I want to practice that way? Plus as you die, your mechanics will degrade horribly and you don't want to gain bad habits.
    I'll do some research on this next year. Note the use the word research, not training. I see no real potential benefit for someone like you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    There are many ways to do lactate-tolerance sets that will give you the desired physiological adaptations without resorting to the "sprint until you die, then keep swimming" repeats.
    obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    A couple interesting links to short articles:
    Thanks. Most of these facts are well known by now, but I am not wiling to call these sets H+/K+ tolerance sets anyway. Seriously, Lactate levels can still be used as proxi for monitoring fatigue level during supra-threshold efforts.

  16. #36
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    From now on, the SDK will follow every single turn I perform in the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    NO, NOT, NEVER, NEGATIVE, NOPE

    swim it in practice the way you want to race it in a meet
    swim it the way that allows you to do the best time & live to tell
    and

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Lactate tolerance sets -- and a subset of these, "race-pace" sets -- are critical to swimming fast. I do a lot of these, but I never ever do them as just mentioned: basically, sprint as fast as you can and try to hold on. I never race that way, why would I want to practice that way? Plus as you die, your mechanics will degrade horribly and you don't want to gain bad habits.

    There are many ways to do lactate-tolerance sets that will give you the desired physiological adaptations without resorting to the "sprint until you die, then keep swimming" repeats.

    A couple interesting links to short articles:

    http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid.html (challenges the theory that acidification is reason that muscles "seize up" as LA concentration increases)

    http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lact...intervals.html (most swimmers don't need to be sold on the benefits of interval training, but still interesting)
    Thanks.

  17. #37
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Dr Mirkin is my friend's dad.

    How's everyones SDKs going today.
    I did 2 fast 50's SDK from a push SCY
    went 26.2 & 26.0

    Mon did 15 x 100 LCM fly K with no board no fins from a dive
    most were 17's, a few 18's, 2 19's & last was 1:14
    did 6 SDKs off the dive & 0 off the turn except for the last one

    hope to take another whack at it on Monday

    ande

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    A couple interesting links to short articles:

    http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lactic_acid.html (challenges the theory that acidification is reason that muscles "seize up" as LA concentration increases)

    http://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/lact...intervals.html (most swimmers don't need to be sold on the benefits of interval training, but still interesting)

  18. #38
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Since we're at the beginning of a new season
    I thought I'd bump all the lanes to see which one is winning

  19. #39
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    I need to spend A LOT more time in this lane!
    About a year ago I decided that to be more competitive needed to learn how to do SDKs. I am trying to use it predominantly for backstroke, but also for butterfly. (So far, there is no way my SDK is faster than my freestyle, so I just get to the surface and start swimming.) To date, I can do 6 SDKs off every wall backstroke in warmup and 3 in the main workout. (In a race it is like 5 on the start and 3 off the turns.) For fly I do 3 SDKs off every wall, but I don't swim a lot of fly. A few times per week I do sets of repeat 25s doing SDK as far as I can and then ez stroke for the rest of the 25. On a good day I can do about 12 SDKs and that gets me.... I am embarrassed to say... just past 7 yards out. This seems like a miserable performance to me. The only good news is that there is NO danger of being DQ'ed for going past the 15m mark! I guess it is better than the 0 SDKs that I could do a year ago, but I am wondering how many more years it is going to take before the SDK thing starts to be an advantage for me. I have a plan to do better this season. Hopefully progress will be swifter.

    I'd like to hear others' experiences. From when you started to try SDK for the first time, how did it progress for you?

  20. #40
    Won Slowest Swimmer Award bzaks1424's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    We had to do shooters the other night with fins. I normally NEVER use fins, but this night was kind of fun. I did my first 25 completely underwater just doing SDK. It was the coolest experience ever until I realized I wasn't watching where I was going and crashed in the bulkhead.
    "Fran operated under the assumption that one’s ability to cope with the travails of daily life fluctuates in direct proportion to one’s willingness to work through hurt." -Ian Prichard

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