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Thread: The SDK Lane

  1. #61
    Very Active Member Jimbosback's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    Lol... just like counting strokes across the pool was foreign to me before joining this forum... so is counting kicks. I guess I can't even estimate how many. 40? 50? I dolphin kick pretty fast with my size 15 s Not exactly going for distance per kick so much as overall speed.

    Typically if I don't kick at all on a pushoff my feet are at the flags when i come up for the first stroke. If I kick off the turns, my head is at half pool with 3-4 kicks when i take the first stroke. (SCM pool)

    FYI -- I am working on this a bit, too, and I found I go much faster with a larger wave and fewer kicks. I repeat 18s w/24 kicks or so and I'm around 20s with my fast kick, which is 30-34 kicks. My best is 16, always at the end of practice.

    YMMV, and I have small, inflexible feet feet. And, I have no idea if these times are good.

  2. #62
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbosback View Post
    FYI -- I am working on this a bit, too, and I found I go much faster with a larger wave and fewer kicks. I repeat 18s w/24 kicks or so and I'm around 20s with my fast kick, which is 30-34 kicks. My best is 16, always at the end of practice.

    YMMV, and I have small, inflexible feet feet. And, I have no idea if these times are good.
    I find that if i kick larger with knees, i can feel the water drag alot more than a smaller quicker kick only from the hips and ankles. I have very flexible ankles too so that helps. I really should try this as a sprint and bribe a lifeguard to run a stopwatch for me. Timing things by the paceclock alone is hard.

  3. #63
    Very Active Member Celestial's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fatboy View Post
    I thought that the value of the SDK is that you are going faster than you can swim (whatever stroker you are racing). If your SDK is slower, what is the point of doing it?
    I think the point is, that by allowing yourself to go slower in practice, so that you become more proficient at it, you will more easily incorporate it into your races, and you will NOT be slower when you do this. It takes a lot of breath control, and breath control takes practice. Gotta be willing to try new things!!

  4. #64
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    I really need to spend more time here.....

    Right now I'm only getting 3 or 4 kicks off the wall on freestyle, then finding I'm moving slower than I should be on my breakout. Ahh well more SDK tomorrow, maybe I'll try and time some 25s.....actually maybe I'll just try and complete some 25s without fins

    just keep kicking, just keep kicking, just keep kicking, kicking, kicking.....
    30something and way too young for my times

  5. #65
    Won Slowest Swimmer Award bzaks1424's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    So as I'm working on my SDK - I know my lower abs are still too weak. So as a bit of an experiment (a necessary one at that) I'm taking the time during my dry land to put an emphasized focus on my lower abs. Things like leg lifts are far harder than they should be and I feel that since the SDK should engage the lower abs, I should (eventually) see a large improvement in my SDK as a result of greater lower ab strength.
    "Fran operated under the assumption that one’s ability to cope with the travails of daily life fluctuates in direct proportion to one’s willingness to work through hurt." -Ian Prichard

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    put an emphasized focus on my lower abs
    Hanging leg lifts = all you need

    If you still want more though... lay on your back, lift your legs about 1 foot off the ground and then with your legs together move your legs as if writing the alphabet with your toes. Do this til you can go twice through the alphabet without lowering the legs

    I never thought of it as ab strength though, you want ab endurance.

  7. #67
    Won Slowest Swimmer Award bzaks1424's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    Hanging leg lifts = all you need

    If you still want more though... lay on your back, lift your legs about 1 foot off the ground and then with your legs together move your legs as if writing the alphabet with your toes. Do this til you can go twice through the alphabet without lowering the legs

    I never thought of it as ab strength though, you want ab endurance.
    Why not both? Consider a weak SDK - If the lower abs/lower back combo are stronger - you should be able to perform a more "robust" (bigger kick) SDK in a shorter/the same amount of time.
    If you want to do it again and again (and again and again and again....etc..) you need to build the endurance.

    In my case - I need to build both. A lot.
    "Fran operated under the assumption that one’s ability to cope with the travails of daily life fluctuates in direct proportion to one’s willingness to work through hurt." -Ian Prichard

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by bzaks1424 View Post
    Why not both? Consider a weak SDK - If the lower abs/lower back combo are stronger - you should be able to perform a more "robust" (bigger kick) SDK in a shorter/the same amount of time.
    If you want to do it again and again (and again and again and again....etc..) you need to build the endurance.

    In my case - I need to build both. A lot.

    I suppose it's almost the same thing, I just don't see the sheer strength part as needed. I think most healthy people posess the ab strength needed to put forth a powerful dolphin kick once regardless of current conditioning. It's all about the repeatability of this move. We're really saying the same thing here though so I won't add anything else Work the kick and the abs for endurance and you'll have gained plenty of strength in the process

  9. #69
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    Hanging leg lifts = all you need

    If you still want more though... lay on your back, lift your legs about 1 foot off the ground and then with your legs together move your legs as if writing the alphabet with your toes. Do this til you can go twice through the alphabet without lowering the legs

    I never thought of it as ab strength though, you want ab endurance.
    That sounds painful - but worth a go I guess!

    I finished a 25 SDK with no fins in 22 sec today. Gotta start somewhere.
    30something and way too young for my times

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    I finished a 25 SDK with no fins in 22 sec today. Gotta start somewhere.
    How many kicks did that take?

  11. #71
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    How many kicks did that take?
    38

    but today I did it in 34 kicks 21 sec

    Although I am just using the digital pace clock for time. I figured I've got enough time to drop that whole second increments would work for the foreseeable future.

    On the plus side I am getting more consistent in my turns - warm-ups and stroke work = 4 SDK off each turn

    Fast(ish) 100s 3 off, and 50s 4 off

    This in turn has reduced the number of strokes I take per length, so I'm headed in the right direction
    30something and way too young for my times

  12. #72
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by bzaks1424 View Post
    Why not both? Consider a weak SDK - If the lower abs/lower back combo are stronger - you should be able to perform a more "robust" (bigger kick) SDK in a shorter/the same amount of time.
    If you want to do it again and again (and again and again and again....etc..) you need to build the endurance.

    In my case - I need to build both. A lot.
    I vote for both.

    You needs the total core for SDKs: abs, back, hip, glutes, thighs. And strength helps.

    Though hanging leg lifts are good stuff. When you get good at this, you can start raising your legs all the way up to the bar.

  13. #73
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    38

    but today I did it in 34 kicks 21 sec
    Indeed you are headed in the right direction!

    This is also encouraging for me. My 22 kicks to go 15 yds translates to 36 kicks for 25 yds, so my DPK is comparable. Clearly I need to work on sustaining the SDK longer.

  14. #74
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    Indeed you are headed in the right direction!

    This is also encouraging for me. My 22 kicks to go 15 yds translates to 36 kicks for 25 yds, so my DPK is comparable. Clearly I need to work on sustaining the SDK longer.
    Keep at it - I sometimes find I float to the surface at around 20yds, so have worked on my breath control and doing the 25 is getting easier. Plus it is helping on coming out of the turns, I now don't think my lungs are about to burst after 3 SDKs.
    30something and way too young for my times

  15. #75
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Ok finally had a workout that I didn't feel like sprints instead of kicks.

    SCM 25 SDK 16 sec 37 kicks from a push timing off the paceclock.

    I workout twice a week 45 minutes / 2300m whichever comes first.

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Over the past few days I have been experimenting with my backstroke SDK. On repeat 100s backstroke I typically do about 3 SDK off every wall, so I tried some where I forced myself to do 4-5 SDK of every wall. They were about 2s slower per 100. Today I did 10 repeat 100s bacstroke and forced myself to do 7-8 SDK off every wall. They were about 10s slower per 100! In fact, I couldn't make my usual interval and had to increase my interval by :15/100. Now part of this is almost certainly due to the fact that I have done several very hard workouts this week. (Very hard for me - pretty mellow by the standards of many bloggers here.) I would have been slower today even at 3 SDK per wall, but I suspect that even when rested the time increase with increasing SDK would be significant. I don't like this trend. Last year I spent a lot of time working on my turns and I could see it translating into faster swims. This season I am spending a lot of time working my SDK and it seems to translating to slower swims. I don't like this picture at all.

  17. #77
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    Over the past few days I have been experimenting with my backstroke SDK. On repeat 100s backstroke I typically do about 3 SDK off every wall, so I tried some where I forced myself to do 4-5 SDK of every wall. They were about 2s slower per 100. Today I did 10 repeat 100s bacstroke and forced myself to do 7-8 SDK off every wall. They were about 10s slower per 100! In fact, I couldn't make my usual interval and had to increase my interval by :15/100. Now part of this is almost certainly due to the fact that I have done several very hard workouts this week. (Very hard for me - pretty mellow by the standards of many bloggers here.) I would have been slower today even at 3 SDK per wall, but I suspect that even when rested the time increase with increasing SDK would be significant. I don't like this trend. Last year I spent a lot of time working on my turns and I could see it translating into faster swims. This season I am spending a lot of time working my SDK and it seems to translating to slower swims. I don't like this picture at all.
    Karl,

    SDKs aren't for everyone. They require flexibility, core strength and leg strength/endurance. For some, they can be counter-productive and slower. Or you can be better on your back or your belly. But I can say they don't happen overnight. It's really a long term project. And it depends, I think, somewhat on your kicking background. I've been doing kick intensive workouts for about 3 years now and I invest a lot of time in SDK work every day I'm in the water. (This is partly due to the shoulder saving nature of this type of practice.) I also think, for me, that kicking a lot with fins and a monofin helped improve and strengthen my SDK.

    I don't think you should be discouraged yet. But you may need to assess how many SDKs are best or you. I don't see many masters doing 7-8 off turns on a 100 back. Or at least effectively.
    Last edited by The Fortress; October 21st, 2010 at 09:24 PM.

  18. #78
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    Over the past few days I have been experimenting with my backstroke SDK. On repeat 100s backstroke I typically do about 3 SDK off every wall, so I tried some where I forced myself to do 4-5 SDK of every wall. They were about 2s slower per 100. Today I did 10 repeat 100s bacstroke and forced myself to do 7-8 SDK off every wall. They were about 10s slower per 100! In fact, I couldn't make my usual interval and had to increase my interval by :15/100. Now part of this is almost certainly due to the fact that I have done several very hard workouts this week. (Very hard for me - pretty mellow by the standards of many bloggers here.) I would have been slower today even at 3 SDK per wall, but I suspect that even when rested the time increase with increasing SDK would be significant. I don't like this trend. Last year I spent a lot of time working on my turns and I could see it translating into faster swims. This season I am spending a lot of time working my SDK and it seems to translating to slower swims. I don't like this picture at all.
    Although I'm pretty new to this SDK lark, I have worked on my kick/core/SDK more since May than ever. Right now I am aiming for 3-4 really good SDKs off each turn in a race. Any more than that I think will be counter-productive. I've never been a great kicker, but must have had some good core strength for my fly, which I'm getting back.

    I know when I do my 25s SDK (I tend to do 4 with fins, then 4 without once per week) I start out well, but half way down the pool my lungs hurt, the legs get faster and the momentum disappears! I'm sticking with the 25s as I can time them and count the kicks and it helps my lung capacity. But in the grand scheme of things you can only do 15yds anyhow.

    there I go again......but that's whats working for me now
    30something and way too young for my times

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Karl,
    SDKs aren't for everyone. They require flexibility,
    I'm ok on that count, for a guy at least.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    core strength
    Pretty good here I think, and I'm doing lots of planks.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    and leg strength/endurance.
    This may be more of a problem, but I think it is lung-capacity/breath control that is killing me.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    ... But I can say they don't happen overnight. It's really a long term project.
    Yea, I first tried them about a year ago, and I've been working them seriously in almost every practice since about June.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    ...I don't think you should be discouraged yet. But you may need to assess how many SDKs are best or you. I don't see many masters doing 7-8 off turns on a 100 back. Or at least effectively.
    Well that's encouraging. My kicking 100 back race plan is currently 5,4,3,2, but I'd like my SDK to be a weapon.

    'gotta watch that Hill Taylor video 20 more times to keep my motivation up.

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    ...I know when I do my 25s SDK (I tend to do 4 with fins, then 4 without once per week) I start out well, but half way down the pool my lungs hurt, the legs get faster and the momentum disappears! ...
    Yea, I think you have nailed the central challenge. it's lung-capacity/breath-control. Last spring I was working with a coach who suggested that to improve breath control, so that I would be better able to handle more SDKs, I should take more strokes before breathing off every turn in practice. I went from 3 to 4 strokes off every wall and after a few months I did see some improvement, as in I mearly hurt, as opposed to me nearly going blind off each turn, but I discovered during the summer that I am faster at 3 strokes off each wall before the breath. 4 slows me down and I wind up taking more strokes per length too.

    For many years I would breath every 5 stokes in practice in freestyle. Last year my training partner (triathlete) commented that I might go faster if I had more oxygen, pointing out that great distance swimmers breathe every cycle. I went to breathing every 3 strokes and, sure enough, its faster.

    It seems clear to me that there is a pretty big speed penalty for depriving oneself of O2. Somehow I have to train myself so that penalty is less.

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