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Thread: The SDK Lane

  1. #81
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    ...I know when I do my 25s SDK (I tend to do 4 with fins, then 4 without once per week)
    8x25/week? Good grief I must be a slow learner. I've been doing 16x25 per day, for like 3 months!

  2. #82
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    8x25/week? Good grief I must be a slow learner. I've been doing 16x25 per day, for like 3 months!
    Nah - I'm just lazy and they hurt!
    30something and way too young for my times

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    Yea, I think you have nailed the central challenge. it's lung-capacity/breath-control. Last spring I was working with a coach who suggested that to improve breath control, so that I would be better able to handle more SDKs, I should take more strokes before breathing off every turn in practice. I went from 3 to 4 strokes off every wall and after a few months I did see some improvement, as in I mearly hurt, as opposed to me nearly going blind off each turn, but I discovered during the summer that I am faster at 3 strokes off each wall before the breath. 4 slows me down and I wind up taking more strokes per length too.

    For many years I would breath every 5 stokes in practice in freestyle. Last year my training partner (triathlete) commented that I might go faster if I had more oxygen, pointing out that great distance swimmers breathe every cycle. I went to breathing every 3 strokes and, sure enough, its faster.

    It seems clear to me that there is a pretty big speed penalty for depriving oneself of O2. Somehow I have to train myself so that penalty is less.
    I think the most effective way to train for lung capacity for SDKs is simply to take more of them off each wall in practice, especially at race pace. I don't know that taking more strokes before you breathe (or adopting a breathing pattern where you breathe less) is as effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    My 22 kicks to go 15 yds translates to 36 kicks for 25 yds, so my DPK is comparable. Clearly I need to work on sustaining the SDK longer.
    I know you are focusing on lung capacity, but I think your DPK is a problem. 36 kicks for a 25 seems a lot; I'm usually at 19-20 kicks. How is your ankle flexibility? And maybe you can tighten your streamline?

  4. #84
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?
    Depends on whether or not you need to breath!
    "Fran operated under the assumption that one’s ability to cope with the travails of daily life fluctuates in direct proportion to one’s willingness to work through hurt." -Ian Prichard

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?
    'funny you should ask that. At Friday evening's practice I had the coach (actually a substitute coach) time me for some 10yd SDKs. I was very surprised to find that I was 0.5s faster on my front than on my back. It feels faster on the back. We did multiple tests with very consistent results.

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    Very Active Member Jimbosback's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?
    Front.

  8. #88
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by fmracing View Post
    For these times, are you guys kicking on your front or back? Does it matter as far as speed?
    Front too, although once I improve some more I plan to work a bit on my back. Just so I have less armstrokes to do on my back when it comes to IMs
    30something and way too young for my times

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    ...
    I know you are focusing on lung capacity, but I think your DPK is a problem. 36 kicks for a 25 seems a lot; I'm usually at 19-20 kicks. How is your ankle flexibility? And maybe you can tighten your streamline?
    Thanks for the feedback. It does sound like DPK needs work. My ankle flexibility is quite good, I think, but perhaps I should compare my ankle flexibility to that of the kids on the University team, instead of to the runners and triathletes I see in the pool regularly...

    -streamline can certainly use improvement, the substitute coach told me so juat last Friday.

    So I was on travel for the past couple of days. One thing this SDK business has done for swimmers is give us something useful to practice in a tiny hotel pool. The one where I was staying paced off at about 9 yds. I did about 100 "lengths" yesterday and played a lot with SDK-DPK. My "natural" kick count was 5 on the front and 7 on the back, but I could get this down to 3-4 on the front and 5 on the back by working DPK. This seems worth more experimentation.

  10. #90
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    that was a 200 LCM fl
    I got a little carried away that first 100
    I really needed to use easy speed

    at 2008 SCY Nats in austin
    a team mate did the 200 fl & split it
    28 32 36 44

    also wanted to remind folks about [ame="http://www.usms.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10130"]HELP! My SDK is Horrible![/ame]


    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    ow ow ow ow ow my brain hurts make it stop

  11. #91
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Hey, a little progress! Today I completed a 25 SCY SDK for the first time ever! and I did it twice! (both on my stomach.)

    The first time took 40 kicks. The second time I rode the glide on each kick and completed the 25 in 31 kicks. I did not time myself.

    ...so why did I make it finally? I think that there were a lot of factors: First, I was pretty well rested. Although I did weights yesterday and this morning before swimming, I hadn't swum since Saturday. I think the biggest factor was that while I work my SDK at the end of practice, after 3500+ yds of swimming, today, I was swimming with my 8 yo daughter, so my swim "workout" was not much more than my usual warmup. Another benefit was that I was at a pool that has lines painted both directions. This gave me a better indication of how far I had progressed. The first time I didn't even intend to go a full 25, and almost gave up near the end, but then saw the last line and realized that a few more good kicks would do it.

    Now I need to time myself and work on improving my speed.

    I found that the limiting factor on my back was running out of air. Eventually I could not hold back the water any longer and water would flood my nose and estuation tubes. This is not compatible with going fast.

  12. #92
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Way to go, Karl! Hey, regarding SDK on your back, you might want to pick up a nose clip and give that a try. I bought one, because I had trouble with the same issue on backstroke starts. As a breaststroker, my backstroke , but I wanted to compete in a pentathlon which required me swimming backstroke. I got used to the nose clip quickly (after the initial clastrophobic feeling) and now use it whenever I swim backstroke (except in IM) or SDK on my back. Give it a try; I bet you will do great with it!

    Good luck!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  13. #93
    Very Active Member Speedo's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    at 2008 SCY Nats in austin
    a team mate did the 200 fl & split it
    28 32 36 44
    Got video?

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    8 x 25 / week?
    Good grief I must be a slow learner.
    I've been doing 16 x 25 per day, for like 3 months!
    Doing only 8 25's SDK a week is probably not enough to improve

    doing 16 x 25 per day might be too much
    consider doing 8 x 25 SDK FAST on 1:30 each day

  15. #95
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    yesterday Tue Nov 30 2010 I did some timed SDKs in practice wearing a yingfa jammer
    longhorn aquatics coach doug rusk timed me


    15 M SDK fast for time
    from a flip turn start
    went 7.4

    200 ish easy

    15 M SDK fast for time
    from a push off start
    went 7.0

    200 ish easy

    25 y SDK fast
    getting 15 M & 25 y times
    from a roll start off blocks
    went 5.1, 10.1

    200 ish easy

    50 SDK fast for time
    getting splits at
    15, 25, 35 & 50
    5.4, 11.4,
    18.9 (7.5), 23.9 (12.5)

    200 ISH EASY

    from my Nov 30 2010 workout
    Last edited by ande; December 1st, 2010 at 05:35 AM.

  16. #96
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    SDK Lane

    Chris Stevenson continues to impress me with his kick/SDK sets, especially his hypoxic stuff. He seems to be quite hung in the lung, or mentally tough, well conditioned and slightly crazy. This type of training allows him to maintain high SDK counts in his 200 races. Quite challenging. Might need a don't-try-this-at-home warning. (or training on your own)
    His WOs are Definitely worth checking out at his blog


    here's some of his recent impressive sets:
    NO FINS



    Hypoxic Kick (600/2800)
    10 x 50 on 1:05, odds fast kick evens easy swim
    -- did all these no-board hypoxic kicking, about 90% effort
    -- alternated between back (18 kicks, breathe, flip, then no-breather) and fly (breathe at open turn)
    -- goal was to go 27s on the back, 29s on the fly, and that's exactly what I did


    Kick Set (750/3300)
    8 x 75 back kick on 1:30, two sets of
    #1 25 easy, 25 hypoxic, 25 easy
    #2 25 hypoxic, 25 easy, 25 hypoxic
    #3 same as #1
    #4 hard
    -- went about 55s on 1-3 & 5-7 (except on #6 my mind wandered and I went 48); went 42-43 on the fast ones


    Kick Set (700/3550)
    14 x 50 on 1:00, odds strong kick, evens easy swim
    -- alternated the kicks between back and fly.
    -- the back was 18 SDK, surface & breath, flip and then a no-breather. I held mostly 27s, a few 26s sprinkled in there.
    -- the fly was front SDK, breath during the open turn flip but no-breather otherwise. I held mostly 28s, a couple 29s sprinkled in there.


    Hard Hypoxic Kicking (1000/3000)
    4 x 100 back kick on 2:00
    -- 16 SDKs off the walls
    -- wanted to hold 1:05s or better
    -- went 1:05/1:03/1:03/1:02


    SDK Pyramid
    "pyramid" (goal is, as always, to hold at a pace of 15 sec/25 or better; I've only succeeded once before, and didn't succeed today). I did this all backstroke.

    25 kick on 0:30 (no-breather; went 13)
    50 kick on 1:00 (18 SDKs off walls; 28)
    75 kick on 1:30 (17 SDKs; 44)
    100 kick on 2:00 (16 SDKs except on last wall did 14; 1:01)
    75 kick on 1:30 (17/17/15 SDKs; 45)
    50 kick on 1:00 (18/17; 29)
    25 kick (no-breather sprint; 12)
    -- didn't seem to "have it" on the hypoxic for this 2nd set. Maybe I was just tired from the first set


    Kick Set (850/3300)
    4 x 100 back kick on 1:45 (held 1:05s, 17-18 SDKs off walls)
    50 easy on 1:00
    4 x 100 fly kick w/ board on 1:45 (skipped one, goofing around; 1:10-11s on others)
    100 easy


    Kick Set (500/2800)
    8 x ?? on 1:15
    -- Mark said the emphasis was on staying underwater. Gee...
    -- did backstroke on all these. Decided to do 50s and try to descend the times (still tired from the previous set when I started this set) rather than do 75s with less rest
    -- did 18 dolphin kicks off both walls, basically going to the flags. Went 30/30/29/29 then all 28s.


    Desc 200s Kick (900/3500)
    4 x 200 descend kick on 3:00
    -- did these backstroke kick
    -- went 2:42 (10 kicks off walls), 2:33 (11 kicks), 2:26 (11-12 kicks), 2:17 (12 kicks). Worked the last one pretty good.


    Pretty Hard Kick Set (900/3600)
    200 kick fast on back on 3:00 (12 SDKs off walls, went 2:19)
    50 easy on 1:30
    200 kick fast dolphin with board on 3:00 (2:25)
    50 easy on 1:30
    100 kick fast on back on 1:30 (16 SDKs, went 59)
    50 easy on 1:30
    100 kick fast dolphin with board on 1:30 (1:07)
    150 easy


    Hypoxic Kick Change-up (1000/3600)
    2 x 4 x 100 on 2:00, 75 kick + 25 easy.
    -- This was all backstroke kick.
    -- The 1st 50 of the 75 kick was a "hard cruise," 16 SDKs, about 30 sec. Then flip and do the next 25 kick fast no-breather. Total time was 43-44 sec on all of them
    -- idea was to simulate the last 1-2 walls of a backstroke race.
    -- took 100 easy on about 2:00 between the two sets of 4x100


    Fast Kicking (1000/3300)
    Went back kick on all these.
    4 x 100 on 2:00, 75 fast kick (get time), 25 easy swim (17 SDKs off walls, 47/45/44/43)
    4 x 75 on 1:40, 50 fast kick, 25 easy swim (18 SDKs, breathe+flip then no-breather, went 26s)
    4 x 50 on 1:20, 25 fast kick, 25 easy swim (no-breathers, went 12s)
    100 easy
    Last edited by ande; December 1st, 2010 at 04:24 PM.

  17. #97
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    Chris Stevenson continues to impress me with his kick/SDK sets, especially his hypoxic stuff. He seems to be quite hung in the lung, or mentally tough, well conditioned and slightly crazy. This type of training allows him to maintain high SDK counts in his 200 races. Quite challenging. Might need a don't try this at home or training on your own warning.
    "Hung in the lung" got me to chuckle...

    While one can certainly work on dolphin kick while on the surface, I don't think anything quite matches the effectiveness of being under the water. Quite aside from the hypoxic aspect, which isn't for everyone, you have a full "column" of water to push against in both directions and you also can work on maintaining a very tight streamline. Surfacing kills SDK speed.

    But the lack of air is, um, troubling. One good option that works for Fortress is to use fins. Even if you can't do (say) a full lap underwater normally, it might be quite easy to do with fins. The greater speed can also give you some feedback to help you find a good streamline position b/c you might be able to feel where the rushing water is hitting. It can also help with ankle flexibility, which is probably the most important key go having good SDK speed.

    But you can certainly work on dolphin kicking with a board, too. When I was in college that's ALL I did, I didn't know any differently, but I had a faster dolphin kick then than I do know. The important thing is to work your kick sets with intensity, don't view them as breaks between swim sets that are more important.

    You can also use a FINIS snorkel combined with the FINIS "alignment kickboard" to work on good streamline position without worrying about air. It still isn't as good as being underwater but if you work it hard, it is still beneficial to your SDK, in my opinion.

  18. #98
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    Re: SDK Lane

    hey Chris,

    glad "Hung in the lung" got you to chuckle...

    proper depth & "columns " of water to push against in both directions is very important, this is why misty hyman and many other fast SDKers kick on their sides

    maintaining a very tight streamline is critical as well
    Surfacing does kill SDK speed.

    lack of air is quite troubling.
    Fins can be hugely helpful

    ankle flexibility is key to having good SDK speed but I'd also throw in foot flexibility in the sense of how well can your toes without trying.
    as is feel for the water with your feet and shins

    working kick sets with intensity is the gospel truth
    can we get an AMEN?
    kick sets are not breaks between swim sets
    they aren't casual kick chat opps
    on kick sets.
    swimmers need to kick fast and hard and gasp on the wall between efforts
    Last edited by ande; December 1st, 2010 at 05:23 PM.

  19. #99
    Very Active Member Redbird Alum's Avatar
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    Re: SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    ...
    working kick sets with intensity is the gospel truth
    can we get an AMEN?

    kick sets are not breaks between swim sets
    they aren't casual kick chat opps
    on kick sets.
    swimmers need to kick fast and hard and gasp on the wall between efforts
    AMEN

    I work with younger age groupers, and we try to stress all the above. Sometimes they would rather have another coach than me on kick days.

    What are your thoughts on pushing the hypoxic SDK kicking with younger swimmers?
    Last edited by Redbird Alum; December 2nd, 2010 at 04:50 PM. Reason: Spelling! Egad!


  20. #100
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    Re: SDK Lane

    thank you
    thoughts on pushing the hypoxic SDK kicking with younger swimmers?
    what do you mean by younger?
    8 - 10, 11 - 12, 13 & up
    I'd stay safe & with in the groups capabilities
    Coaches should consider incremental pushing
    5 meters SDK, then 10, then half way, then 15 meters, then 20 then 25.
    Coaches get to decide

    how swimmers start

    how much rest they get between efforts (time & easy swims)

    how many kicks swimmers take or how far they can go
    how much kicking how much swimming

    ie
    200 bk with 8 fast kicks off each wall, swimming easy
    is a SDK set


    The kids can also play games like

    SDK Whale Attack
    which is like sharks and minnow or whale attack BUT
    the minnows can only SDK across the pool, preferably no breathers from a dive, if the pool is deep enough.
    whoever is IT has to catch the minnows underwater and pull them to the surface to be considered caught.



    [QUOTE=Redbird Alum;231032]
    AMEN
    I work with younger age groupers, and we try to stress all the above. Sometimes they would rather have another coach than me on kick days.
    What are your thoughts on pushing the hypoxic SDK kicking with younger swimmers?[/QUOTE]

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