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Thread: The SDK Lane

  1. #121
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    I've written about the shin fin kicking technique
    Tip 190 the Shin Fin Kicking Technique
    Great tip. I've noticed that, when I do long kick sets or very fast ones, I sometimes feel like I'm developing shin splits like a runner.

    I recommend buying a monofin to improve your dolphin kicking. I love the Finis Shooter monofin. And I recently purchased the new Finis Foil monofin, which is all rubber. (Hence you won't slice your foot open if you drop it.)

    http://www.finisinc.com/s.nl/c.1144330/it.A/id.1443/.f

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    Karl, my time before Christmas on my front, no fins was 22s with about 30 kicks. I'm having an SDK break right now, but will be back to it in a week or so. I do plan to use it when I race the 100 free next week as I find I get good, fast distance off my turns with 3 or 4 kicks. This will be my first race since the summer season so will be interesting to see how I have improved (if at all that is!).
    How did the 100 free go?

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    When I do a full 25 SDK, I feel I do a reasonable 15 yds then struggle with the final part.
    Yea, I agree. Mine seems reasonable for a while, then loses effectiveness, especially if I float up to the surface.

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    I know what you mean about the "magic spot" - Do you SDK off your turns in warm-up and every freestyle set? I have been concentrating on this and find I'm hitting that spot (2/3/4 SDK off the wall-into flutter-into stroke ) a lot more often now than a few months back.
    I only SDK dilligently on back and fly, but my workouts are more than 50% back, often 70-80% back. I occasionally do one SDK off the wall on free, but I don't see much point, my flutter kick is faster and my free is way faster so I'm not going to SDK in a freestyle race.

  3. #123
    raced the 200 fly couldbebetterfly's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    How did the 100 free go?

    Ummm yeah it went! Swam it this morning 1.05.01 vs 1.04.21 in the summer. However the meet was tiny and I had no competition in the 100 free. (I was chasing, and caught the no 1 seed when I did that time in the summer) Got a meet record though!

    On the plus side it was less off than my other 2 events, 50fly and 100IM, so perhaps the SDK did help.
    30something and way too young for my times

  4. #124
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by couldbebetterfly View Post
    Ummm yeah it went! Swam it this morning 1.05.01 vs 1.04.21 in the summer. However the meet was tiny and I had no competition in the 100 free. (I was chasing, and caught the no 1 seed when I did that time in the summer) Got a meet record though!
    Meet record, 0.8 off pb, all with nobody to chase. That's nothing to complain about, esp. if you have been changing your turn, i.e. using SDK. I wouldn't be surprised if a breakthrough swim is around the corner.

  5. #125
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Some of the greatest SDK footage ever
    Starts around 3:00 in
    Rome 2009 - Men's 100 Fly finals - Phelps vs. Cavic
    [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41tu3XG2u4I"]Rome 2009 - Men's 100 Fly finals - Phelps vs. Cavic - YouTube[/nomedia]
    Last edited by ande; November 30th, 2011 at 08:18 PM.

  6. #126
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    After a start or turn, when should a swimmer start to SDK?
    It seems that the conventional wisdon is that one should start SDK (or kicking in general) when the glide speed off the wall drops to swimming speed. I've been thinking about this and I'm trying to convince myself that it might be better to start kicking when the glide speed drops below the slowest swimming speed during the entire race. Basically, one needs to maximize the average speed over the entire race. This approach assumes that one could use that tiny bit of extra kicking anywhere during the entire race. Would it not make sense to use it to relace the slowest section, not a faster section off the wall? It seems to me that the longer the race, the more sense this approach would make. Thoughts?

  7. #127
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    After a start or turn, when should a swimmer start to SDK?
    It seems that the conventional wisdon is that one should start SDK (or kicking in general) when the glide speed off the wall drops to swimming speed. I've been thinking about this and I'm trying to convince myself that it might be better to start kicking when the glide speed drops below the slowest swimming speed during the entire race. Basically, one needs to maximize the average speed over the entire race. This approach assumes that one could use that tiny bit of extra kicking anywhere during the entire race. Would it not make sense to use it to relace the slowest section, not a faster section off the wall? It seems to me that the longer the race, the more sense this approach would make. Thoughts?
    Well, my first thought is that you are over-thinking things only because we don't have accurate built-in speed gauges. Basically I start kicking when my instincts tell me to.

    But in terms terms of physics, physiology or what have you, I don't know that your answer is correct. My thought would be to start kicking when you are at your kick speed (SDK or flutter or whatever). If you slow down more than that they you are using energy to get back up to that speed. It isn't just about speed it is about energy efficiency over the whole race too.

    (And I think that basically may be when my brain tells me to start kicking, basically saying "you can go faster than this!" if I slowed down too much.)

  8. #128
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Well, my first thought is that you are over-thinking things only because we don't have accurate built-in speed gauges. Basically I start kicking when my instincts tell me to.

    But in terms terms of physics, physiology or what have you, I don't know that your answer is correct. My thought would be to start kicking when you are at your kick speed (SDK or flutter or whatever). If you slow down more than that they you are using energy to get back up to that speed. It isn't just about speed it is about energy efficiency over the whole race too.

    (And I think that basically may be when my brain tells me to start kicking, basically saying "you can go faster than this!" if I slowed down too much.)
    Yes.It is much easier and more efficient to slow deceleration than to accelerate.The whole point of SDK is that it is faster than surface swimming(if it isn't for you,don't do it.)Also you can only go 15M,(or until you need to breath), as SDK. You can't go back underwater after you surface,so make the most of it.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Yes.It is much easier and more efficient to slow deceleration than to accelerate.The whole point of SDK is that it is faster than surface swimming(if it isn't for you,don't do it.)Also you can only go 15M,(or until you need to breath), as SDK. You can't go back underwater after you surface,so make the most of it.
    Seems like a question very similar to the one Karl posed is, when should I start my breaststroke pull-down?

  10. #130
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Seems like a question very similar to the one Karl posed is, when should I start my breaststroke pull-down?
    The "right"answer to that is, "as soon as you slow down to swimming speed."Unfortunately,as you noted,we don't carry speedometers.Its a matter of feel,it's sort of"when you feel yourself slowing down".It is totally subjective,but with practice and use of a stopwatch you can find what is fastest for you and how it feels.I heard one coach say"count to four after the pushoff,then pull-count to 3 after the pulldown and then kick."That may be best for a small percentage of swimmers,depending how fast you count while underwater(I can count really fast on the last turn of a 200 BR SCY or SCM.)
    Now back to our previously scheduled SDK programming.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  11. #131
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    After a start or turn, when should a swimmer start to SDK?
    It seems that the conventional wisdon is that one should start SDK (or kicking in general) when the glide speed off the wall drops to swimming speed. I've been thinking about this and I'm trying to convince myself that it might be better to start kicking when the glide speed drops below the slowest swimming speed during the entire race. Basically, one needs to maximize the average speed over the entire race. This approach assumes that one could use that tiny bit of extra kicking anywhere during the entire race. Would it not make sense to use it to relace the slowest section, not a faster section off the wall? It seems to me that the longer the race, the more sense this approach would make. Thoughts?
    My age group coach is constantly preaching to "ride the glide", meaning the explosive jump off the walls before beginning any kicking (or the pulldown in breaststroke). Why slow yourself down when you're already going the fastest you can right off the wall? You don't want to glide too long, but it's actually unnecessary to begin kicking of any kind too early off the walls.
    Even a tight streamline glide can be better than an open poorly executed "superman" streamline w/ kicking.
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  12. #132
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I heard one coach say"count to four after the pushoff,then pull-count to 3 after the pulldown and then kick."That may be best for a small percentage of swimmers,depending how fast you count while underwater(I can count really fast on the last turn of a 200 BR SCY or SCM.)
    I go for maximum distance, and at times more maximum than my neighbor in the next lane over. I will actually wait and glide longer, waiting for him/her to take their pulldown, knowing that I carry excellent upperbody strength for a good pulldown. I then ride out that glide as well before I do my final kick and breakout. After that, well, the breaststrokers win the race...but in SCY/SCM I do my best to keep up with each following pullout.
    "Don't be upset by the results you didn't get with the work you didn't do." - K.A. Benthin

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by jaadams1 View Post
    My age group coach is constantly preaching to "ride the glide", meaning the explosive jump off the walls before beginning any kicking (or the pulldown in breaststroke). Why slow yourself down when you're already going the fastest you can right off the wall? You don't want to glide too long, but it's actually unnecessary to begin kicking of any kind too early off the walls.
    Even a tight streamline glide can be better than an open poorly executed "superman" streamline w/ kicking.
    Indeed. I started to think about this because I have been watching a lot of age group swim meets recently and it appears to me that many kids start kicking too soon, (sometimes even in the air off the start!) and most start their breaststroke pullout waaaaay too soon. That made me wonder; when is the correct time to start kicking? I've never really thought about it. I just start kicking when instinct tells me to, like Chris says. I now think maybe I start kicking too soon in freestyle. I milk my breaststroke pullouts for all they are worth because my breaststroke is weak so I'm definitely not too soon there. I've been playing with my backstroke kickouts and now think maybe I start kicking too late. I need to find a coach with a watch...

  14. #134
    Active Member habu987's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Going back to a topic from a page or two ago, I timed my 25 underwater SDK on my back today. From a push at about 90% effort, I went 17 seconds. I didn't count how many kicks I took. A few months ago, I did a 50 backstroke kick for time from a push, staying underwater and SDKing as long as possible--came up at the flags to take the flip stroke and then made it to just shy of the 15m mark off the turn before running out of air and switching to flutter kick. I did a 35.2 with a two stroke finish.

    I do know that in general I don't get much DPK at all. When I race backstroke, 14 kicks off the start gets my breakout stroke right at the 15m mark. Right now I'm playing around with my SDK on my back, trying to see whether leading with my upper body or powering with my hips is more beneficial. For free and fly, I power from the hips, as I just can't seem to utilize my upper body unless I'm on my back.

  15. #135
    Very Active Member rtodd's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    In track all sprinters reach their maximum speed at 60-70 meters and they start to slow down. Whomever slows down the slowest appears to be accelerating because the other runners fall back. I think in swimming you want to start kicking early and hang onto that pushoff speed as long as possible.

  16. #136
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by rtodd View Post
    I think in swimming you want to start kicking early and hang onto that pushoff speed as long as possible.
    But there is a point at which each swimmer should surface vs. trying to stay under for the full 15 meters allowed. Some people are excellent at SDKing and can maintain a swimming speed underwater, but others actually begin slowing down, even though they can still make the full 15 meters. Once you begin slowing down, you're better off to get to the surface and swim if you care about your speed.
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    Very Active Member rxleakem's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    I have started to set SDK goals off each walls for the backstroke events, and I do more in the 50 than in the 200; I have timed myself with Ande's methods and am faster underwater, but I can't hold it together on the 200. Setting #'s off the walls has helped me to commit to staying with the underwaters before they start to be deleterious for the rest of the event.
    ..<))><

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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by jaadams1 View Post
    But there is a point at which each swimmer should surface vs. trying to stay under for the full 15 meters allowed. Some people are excellent at SDKing and can maintain a swimming speed underwater, but others actually begin slowing down, even though they can still make the full 15 meters. Once you begin slowing down, you're better off to get to the surface and swim if you care about your speed.
    Yes. I have timed this over and over in practice. Zero SDK is the fastest (except off the start where 2-4 SDKs seem to be ok - not clearly faster than FK, but not cleary slower either). I'm convinced that I am doing something wrong in my SDK, but I haven't figure out what it is yet.

  19. #139
    Very Active Member rtodd's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    But there is a point at which each swimmer should surface vs. trying to stay under for the full 15 meters allowed. Some people are excellent at SDKing and can maintain a swimming speed underwater, but others actually begin slowing down, even though they can still make the full 15 meters. Once you begin slowing down, you're better off to get to the surface and swim if you care about your speed.
    I absoultely agree with that. I was speaking about when, after the pushoff, you initiate your kicks. I think it should be pretty early and not wait to slow down before kicking, then surface when you slow down below your swim speed.

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    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: The SDK Lane

    Quote Originally Posted by rtodd View Post
    I absoultely agree with that. I was speaking about when, after the pushoff, you initiate your kicks. I think it should be pretty early and not wait to slow down before kicking, then surface when you slow down below your swim speed.
    I know that I am not the greatest at SDKing, but I can maintain a good enough speed for a short distance off the walls. I've also raced with others who I notice seem to stay under too long (and lose speed), thus affecting the total potential time for their swim.
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