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Thread: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

  1. #41
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    I think I'll point the noodling USMS members from my team to the thread so they can see what kind of frustration they've been causing.
    I can't tell if you are deliberately misunderstanding.

    The way I interpret it, "noodlers" in that thread does not refer to the slower members of a masters team. I don't believe anyone in this forum ever bashes such people; indeed, I suspect a goodly number of people who frequent the forum might identify themselves as such.

    The "noodlers" of that thread include people like:
    -- recreational lap swimmers who refuse to share their lane or circle swim properly
    -- aqua-aerobics types who do not like to get their hair wet and resent masters swimmers who "splash too much"
    -- people who complain if the water temperature ever dips below 85 degrees.

    Certainly such people have a right to go about their business but it isn't surprising that there might be tensions between such and USMS members. Even 70-year-old masters swimmers; we have some pretty competitive ones around these parts.

  2. #42
    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Are humor or irreverence or trash talking disallowed as well?
    All other things aside, I fail to imagine any positive, constructive outcome of trash talking by, among or to anyone on the forums. Your (second person plural) humor and irreverence may also be seen as crude insults to someone else. Are you that sure of your audience?

    The forums are public places. If you are not at all shy about your second grade teacher, mother or priest/ mullah/ rabbi reading everything you have posted, then by all means, post away.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

  3. #43
    Very Active Member swimshark's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    I can't tell if you are deliberately misunderstanding.

    The way I interpret it, "noodlers" in that thread does not refer to the slower members of a masters team. I don't believe anyone in this forum ever bashes such people; indeed, I suspect a goodly number of people who frequent the forum might identify themselves as such.

    The "noodlers" of that thread include people like:
    -- recreational lap swimmers who refuse to share their lane or circle swim properly
    -- aqua-aerobics types who do not like to get their hair wet and resent masters swimmers who "splash too much"
    -- people who complain if the water temperature ever dips below 85 degrees.

    Certainly such people have a right to go about their business but it isn't surprising that there might be tensions between such and USMS members. Even 70-year-old masters swimmers; we have some pretty competitive ones around these parts.
    I agree. The "noodlers" talked about here are not those who join teams, therefore aren't USMS members. Not that they can't read the forums since this is a public place - anyone can read. But the "noodlers" are not "made" (to use your word, Connie) to buy a USMS membership since this group that is talked about do not join teams.

    I am proud to say I get beaten by a 75+ year old masters member (and former Olympian) every time we compete against each other. Has nothing to do with age. He's just amazing. I would never classify him a noodler nor anyone else in a USMS practice as one.

  4. #44
    Very Active Member thewookiee's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Yea, well, now that you know, no sucking up, the way Jim Wheeler does.

    Oh, and guess what, our current President, Jeff Moxie.... SPMA guy. Don't you just love that?
    That's probably why all the turmoil, SPMA is bursting at the seams form all the power concentrated down here.

    Wow. Thanks for the lecture again on the usms leadership. I can't believe that I really didn't know that Rob had been president, even after seeing the title by his name. You will probably next tell me that the chairman of the championship committee doesn't know much about pool measuring or something crazy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    All other things aside, I fail to imagine any positive, constructive outcome of trash talking by, among or to anyone on the forums. Your (second person plural) humor and irreverence may also be seen as crude insults to someone else. Are you that sure of your audience?

    The forums are public places. If you are not at all shy about your second grade teacher, mother or priest/ mullah/ rabbi reading everything you have posted, then by all means, post away.
    Trash talking with people you know is fun. We all know that Fort beat the briefs off of geek. We have been patiently waiting on stick legs to honor his bet with a naked 200 fly. Good thing it's fly, instead of backstroke. I think the bet should have included geek having to do belly flops into the pool at each end.

    How can you not want to trash talk with someone like him? If you have seem him try to kick a 100-200, you always get good material to rub him on.

    If a person doesn't like trash talking about forum members(who happen to be friends) skip the posts when they see the screen names.

  5. #45
    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Ah, but there's the rub. Trash talking to your small group on the big forum is akin to a gang taking over a public park. Yes, there are other parts of the forum to go to, but why would you force others to make that decision? It is very possible that they will leave and not return because of one incident. Not in the best interests of USMS.

    If you find that trash talking amongst yourselves is inescapable, why not do it with PMs? Then you can talk all you want and not disturb the informational and idea exchange aspects of the forums that draw new people here.

    General humor is one thing, but when your posts involve or address only one or two posters, it has become a private matter best taken to a private forum. You and your friends may laugh hysterically about your posts, but most people reading them range from not understanding the intention of the post, to some extreme of labeling the forum as full of trolls.

    Is that your intention? Do you want that enduring legacy? A former poster is largely responsible for shutting down the USA swimming forums. Let's try not to create the same atmosphere here. Even as a joke.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

  6. #46
    Very Active Member aquageek's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    You know, Heather, no one really wants to read your preachy posts.

  7. #47
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    Ah, but there's the rub. Trash talking to your small group on the big forum is akin to a gang taking over a public park.
    It really isn't even that private.

    When you are in a park, in a small group, once the words are said, they go away, and unless someone repeats them, they are gone.

    In the forum, anyone can go anywhere. Words are written and stay here for everyone and anyone to read. The only way they can't be read is if the access to certain areas is made private, which it is not.

    This is exactly what I am talking about when I say people are getting false sense of security and ownership. USMS forum isn't their little anything goes, and Code of conduct ahould be trumped by some silly notion of free speech and anything goes.

    This is a public place, and things are in writing. People don't even have to be USMS members to come here. I think the only requirement is an email address.
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  8. #48
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by aquageek View Post
    You know, Heather, no one really wants to read your preachy posts.
    Nice way to address the current Vice president of Administration in the USMS. I think this board falls under his jurisdiction, including the moderators here.
    See: http://www.usms.org/admin/org.php

    He is listed second to the president.

    However geek, Noone really wants to hear or be private messaged by you either, but we are forced to. So, tough bananas.

    Did you guys know that if you don't want someone to keep private messaging you, and you ask for moderators for assistance they won't help you.

    Your only choice is to turn your whole private messaging OFF, and cut everyone you talk to in regular basis OFF.

    I have NEVER participated in a forum that lame.
    Last edited by Conniekat8; August 1st, 2010 at 02:09 PM.
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  9. #49
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by thewookiee View Post
    Trash talking with people you know is fun.
    Yea, well, when you do it in writing in a public place, other then your friends can hear it, and object.

    Seriously, internet and forums have been around for so long by now, I thought this was common knowledge.

    Sounds like thisplace likes 'free speech' only as long as everyone is a part of the same clique. That's not free speech.

    Colloquial free speech is everyone having equal opportunity, without interference or prosecution.

    Legal free speech however, only protects individuals from expressing theirpolitical views, without being prosecuted by government. No more then that.
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  10. #50
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by thewookiee View Post
    Wow. Thanks for the lecture again on the usms leadership. I can't believe that I really didn't know that Rob had been president, even after seeing the title by his name. You will probably next tell me that the chairman of the championship committee doesn't know much about pool measuring or something crazy.
    My Fiancee has been the chair of a championship committee for many years, till last year, and I know for the fact, he doesn't.

    Current Championship committe chair, I know him personally also. Even thouogh we hadn't talked in several years, in the past, we did have many conversation about pool measurements - where taught him some stuff. I would expect he retained most of it, he's a pretty smart guy. It's possbile he didn't. At the moment, I don't have more current feedback from him.

    Also, did you know that Michael Heather Vice president of administration - second in command on many things, next to USMS president. I'm not 100% sure, but I think this forum falls under the USMS administration.

    Isn't it cute when aquageek comes here and tells him, we don't want to hear your preaching here? I think that's quite a gem.

    Here, read up on who is who in the USMS please:
    http://www.usms.org/admin/org.php
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  11. #51
    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by aquageek View Post
    You know, Heather, no one really wants to read your preachy posts.

    Well if they make you uncomfortable, you could just ignore them. Or go to another part of the forums.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

  12. #52
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    Well if they make you uncomfortable, you could just ignore them. Or go to another part of the forums.
    I was told by our moderator, and the immediate past president that if it bothers me, I should turn my private messaging off, or that they can do it for me.

    Doesn't sound like free speech to me. Free speech doesn't mean limiting one individuals ability to communicate, so that another one can.

    Technically, one individuals liverties stop where another individuals rights beging. Those are the kinds of laws and truths and a bundle human rights that ourdemocracy has been founded on. The way they are applied in this forum and in USMS as a whole appears seriously deficient and skewed.
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  13. #53
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by swimshark View Post
    I agree. The "noodlers" talked about here are not those who join teams, therefore aren't USMS members.
    Not true. In many poolsin order to have insurance, *all* people have to be USMS members, or the insurace is void - for everyone.
    At ourpool, if we want to allow "noodlers" the only way the wole pool can be insured is to make them join USMS.

    It's a way for USMS to beef up their membership numbers by a large silent group who is unaware of their rights and privileges.

    I think it's a disgrace, really.
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  14. #54
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    I can't tell if you are deliberately misunderstanding.
    I understand perfectly.
    Understanding and agrreing are two different things.

    I also understand that *all* people have rights and feelings, not just the small group of people in this forum. I prefer to make an attempt to be objective everyone.

    If people want to trash talk and vent,as many many people do this, I think they should do that in private. I don't think it's appropriate here in a public forum.

    if it's appropriate for the public forum, then all demographic groups of USMS should be able to do it, not just one or two. ifonly one or two can do it, but bringing others can cause conflict, who gets to decide who 'rules the forum'?

    Seriously, this forum belongs to the USMS, not to you, or the moderators for that fact. Moderators are hired employees ot volunteers, not owners of this place.
    Last edited by Conniekat8; August 1st, 2010 at 02:31 PM.
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  15. #55
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    The "noodlers" of that thread include people like:
    -- recreational lap swimmers who refuse to share their lane or circle swim properly
    -- aqua-aerobics types who do not like to get their hair wet and resent masters swimmers who "splash too much"
    -- people who complain if the water temperature ever dips below 85 degrees.
    yes, yes, I'm surte that after seeing first few posts, and thinking that perhaps this applies to them, many people are going to be interested in finding out more about it. I'm yet to see customers do anything of the sort, and guess what, USMS memebrs are 'customers of USMS services', and need to be treated as such.

    Not to mention that many 'noodlers' are quite possibly aspiring swimmers.

    At our pool, and many pools across the country, noone gets access to the pool unless they can be insured. Noodler, water aerobics person, anyone, period.

    For many of those pools, an avenue to get insurance is for members to belong to the USMS.

    USMS insurance states that everyone in the group has to be covered, if even one person given access to the pool (like someone in a different lane) is not a member, the insurance is void for all in the pool.

    Sounds like 50-60% or more of the non competetive, non aggressive swimmers that make up USMS people are not welcome to the USMS. Perhaps they should organize themselves and create their own association, one friendlier to their interests and level. Then you guys can have your own little fiefdom.

    I'd like to see you have all the benefits and perks and competitons and things you enjoy you have now, when USMS membership drops to half.
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  16. #56
    Very Active Member LindsayNB's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Is it true that USMS insurance doesn't allow you to split the pool between, for example age group swimmers and masters swimmers, with each having their own lanes? Is it true even if the two groups are divided by a bulkhead?

    These are not rhetorical questions, I don't know and I'm genuinely curious.

  17. #57
    Very Active Member Karlene's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Lindsey,
    Check out:
    http://www.usms.org/admin/lmschb/lmsc_hb_ins.pdf

    On the last page it states that if USMS group is, for example, in lanes 1-3 and a totally separate workout is occurring in other lanes that is not part of the USMS workout, the USMS group is still covered.

  18. #58
    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    USMS insurance states that everyone in the group has to be covered, if even one person given access to the pool (like someone in a different lane) is not a member, the insurance is void for all in the pool.
    This is not correct. If you would like accurate information, please refer to the Local guide to Operations or contact the national office.

  19. #59
    Very Active Member Conniekat8's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Copeland View Post
    This is not correct. If you would like accurate information, please refer to the Local guide to Operations or contact the national office.
    Does this mean that noodlers on our team (Mission Viejo Nadadores) don't have to be USMS members, and this wouldn't void our insurance?

    We were told that they have to, and we've been making everyone in the club be USMS members. We were told that even clinic attendees, who aren't USMS members, need to sign up. I think there's a one day, short term membership available for this, I'd have to check with powers to be.

    I have to do this with all of our clinic attendees, before they are admitted to the clinic and can get in the water. If we don't have to do this, it's news to me. lat time we re-checked is couple years ago. has this changed?

    Our club doesn't carry additional, third party insurance.

    It may be different with pools that have several different clubs etc. Every pool is different.

    My point is, the noodlers could very easily be USMS members, or maybe not. There's no way of telling when you look at their behavior and swimming style. Only way to know is to check wth the team or pool oprator, and see how the insurance is being handled.
    -Connie
    I'd rather be swimming http://www.mastersmvnswim.org/

  20. #60
    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: USMS Code of conduct VS. USMS Free For All Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by Conniekat8 View Post
    Does this mean that noodlers on our team (Mission Viejo Nadadores) don't have to be USMS members, and this wouldn't void our insurance?
    If you would like accurate information, please refer to the Local guide to Operations or contact the national office.

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