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Thread: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

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    Very Active Member mermaid's Avatar
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    2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    January:
    2012 USMS Speedo One Hour Postal National Championship. Complete in your own pool or at the CMU Fundraiser on January 29, 2012, 9:00 am. Entry forms for the USMS postal event are located here: http://www.clubassistant.com/club/me...1308&smid=3291
    For the CMU Fundraiser info, PM me and I will give you details.

    January 22nd:
    USMS recognized meet. The Allegheny Mountain YMCA Masters meet at Allegheny Valley YMCA will be recognized by USMS. The 25 yd events will not be recognized by USMS. You will need to have YMCA and USMS membership for participation. USMS members will have their results submitted to USMS. More information is located here: http://amymsa.org/

    February 26th:
    USMS recognized meet. 16th Annual 1650yd Swim Challenge at CMU, warm ups at 7:45, first heat @ 8:45am. For more information and entry form, please PM me. USMS members will have their results submitted to USMS.

    March 4th:
    USMS recognized meet at Duquesne University. The 25yd events will not be recognized by USMS. Participants will need YMCA & USMS membership for participation. The meet format can be viewed here: http://amymsa.org/ under “swim meet schedule”. USMS members will have their results submitted to USMS.

    March 17th:
    USMS sanctioned meet. Luck Leprechaun SCY Masters Meet hosted by CHAR Masters at the Chartiers Valley High School. More information can be found here: http://www.usms.org/comp/event.php?M...20111205LUCKYY
    Come live with me in the sea said she,
    Down on the ocean floor
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    That you've never seen before

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    Very Active Member ViveBene's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Hi Mermaid,
    I'm going to try for more of the GLOWS swims than in past years and look forward to visiting your fair city of Pittsburgh this summer. Do you have a rough date (even if the swim is not yet sanctioned) for Search for Mongy, so one could plan one's travel, roughly?
    Many thanks.

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    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Please see notes in red.

    Quote Originally Posted by mermaid View Post
    January:
    2012 USMS Speedo One Hour Postal National Championship. Complete in your own pool or at the CMU Fundraiser on January 29, 2012, 9:00 am. Entry forms for the USMS postal event are located here: http://www.clubassistant.com/club/me...1308&smid=3291
    For the CMU Fundraiser info, PM me and I will give you details.

    January 22nd:
    USMS recognized meet. The Allegheny Mountain YMCA Masters meet at Allegheny Valley YMCA will be recognized by USMS. The 25 yd events will not be recognized by USMS. You will need to have YMCA and USMS membership for participation. USMS members will have their results submitted to USMS. More information is located here: http://amymsa.org/

    Results not yet submitted.

    February 26th:
    USMS recognized meet. 16th Annual 1650yd Swim Challenge at CMU, warm ups at 7:45, first heat @ 8:45am. For more information and entry form, please PM me. USMS members will have their results submitted to USMS.

    Results not yet submitted.


    March 4th:
    USMS recognized meet at Duquesne University. The 25yd events will not be recognized by USMS. Participants will need YMCA & USMS membership for participation. The meet format can be viewed here: http://amymsa.org/ under “swim meet schedule”. USMS members will have their results submitted to USMS.

    Results not yet submitted.

    March 17th:
    USMS sanctioned meet. Luck Leprechaun SCY Masters Meet hosted by CHAR Masters at the Chartiers Valley High School. More information can be found here: http://www.usms.org/comp/event.php?M...20111205LUCKYY

    Additional question/comment:

    I am making a formal request that this year's AMYMSA Championships at Clarion University will be sanctioned for USMS, and the times submitted. This meet did "count" two years ago, but it didn't count last year. What can USMS swimmers do to ensure that the biggest end-of-the-season masters meet in the Pittsburgh/Western PA region be recognized and the times submitted?


    Thanks!

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    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by jim thornton View Post
    Additional question/comment:
    I am making a formal request that this year's AMYMSA Championships at Clarion University will be sanctioned for USMS, and the times submitted. This meet did "count" two years ago, but it didn't count last year. What can USMS swimmers do to ensure that the biggest end-of-the-season masters meet in the Pittsburgh/Western PA region be recognized and the times submitted?
    Thanks!
    The first think you can look for the USMS Sanction or Recognition number on the entry form. If it’s not there contact the meet host and make sure they have applied for recognition, received recognition and confirm that the conduct of the event shall conform to USMS swimming rules and administrative regulations.

    If the meet host chooses to have the meet recognized and run according to USMS rules, then your times will count. If they choose not to, then you may want to look for other meets or swim and live with the understanding that your times won’t be recognized by USMS.

    I assume you are making your “formal request” to the meet host. Since you said “making” instead of “made”, I suggest you make your request to the meet host with due haste. I assume the meet is coming soon and many sanction chairs require a certain amount of time to process requests.

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    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Copeland View Post
    The first think you can look for the USMS Sanction or Recognition number on the entry form. If it’s not there contact the meet host and make sure they have applied for recognition, received recognition and confirm that the conduct of the event shall conform to USMS swimming rules and administrative regulations.

    If the meet host chooses to have the meet recognized and run according to USMS rules, then your times will count. If they choose not to, then you may want to look for other meets or swim and live with the understanding that your times won’t be recognized by USMS.

    I assume you are making your “formal request” to the meet host. Since you said “making” instead of “made”, I suggest you make your request to the meet host with due haste. I assume the meet is coming soon and many sanction chairs require a certain amount of time to process requests.
    How do you even find out who the meet host is?

    I thought that because this thread claimed that the meets listed were all recognized, that it had been done.

    Could USMS send a new marshal out to our section of the Wild West? It appears as if Al Swearengen is running Pittsburgh like Deadwood!

    http://forums.usms.org/picture.php?a...pictureid=2245

    (Note: Our Al is on the back right side of the picture.)

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    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by jim thornton View Post
    How do you even find out who the meet host is?
    The meet director or some other person in charge should be identified on the entry form. I always include my name, email address and phone number on the entry form of any event I run. Have you looked at the entry form for a recognition number or contact information?

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    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Rob, are there any repercussions if a recognition/sanction are applied for (and granted) but then said meet isn't run according to the applicable rules? Basically, I guess I'm asking if this is this something that varies by, and is set by, LMSC or something that is in the LMSC minimum standards?

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules Committee Co-Vice Chair

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    Active Member LMH's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Jim, Make sure you contact the person who started this thread to see if the requirements were submitted.
    Another item that will need to be handled by the individuals who are USMS members is their reg # be listed in the meet.
    Because most of the swimmers in AMYMSA are not USMS members, USMS members need to bring the reg #'s to the meet and besure they are entered in the meet manager program for recognition.
    AMYMSA is not resonsible for these items and it would be nice if someone would step up to see the items submitted.
    Loren
    There are three sides to every story, Yours, Mine, and the Cold Hard Truth!

  9. #9
    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmieAvsFan View Post
    Rob, are there any repercussions if a recognition/sanction are applied for (and granted) but then said meet isn't run according to the applicable rules?
    Yes, there can be repercussions if a sanctioned event is not run according to the applicable rules. At this point, it is up to the LMSC to determine what these are. However, in general they seem to fall into one or more of 5 LMSC responses: 1) to revoke the sanction, 2) not accept results for official consideration, 3) place restrictions on future sanctions to the host, 4) admonish the host without consequence to the swimmers, and/or 5) fine or not fully return surety bonds. These are all at the LMSC discretion; however the national records and tabulation folks may become involved if it has to do with acceptance for national records or Top 10.

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    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Copeland View Post
    Yes, there can be repercussions if a sanctioned event is not run according to the applicable rules. At this point, it is up to the LMSC to determine what these are. However, in general they seem to fall into one or more of 5 LMSC responses: 1) to revoke the sanction, 2) not accept results for official consideration, 3) place restrictions on future sanctions to the host, 4) admonish the host without consequence to the swimmers, and/or 5) fine or not fully return surety bonds. These are all at the LMSC discretion; however the national records and tabulation folks may become involved if it has to do with acceptance for national records or Top 10.
    Is it the same for recognized events? YES
    Last edited by Rob Copeland; March 8th, 2012 at 12:25 PM. Reason: Question Answered.

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules Committee Co-Vice Chair

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    Very Active Member mermaid's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Jim - The Top Ten Chairman for Allegheny Mountain LMSC, Steve Love, is very responsive and responsible. He has had a very busy February between officiating High School and USA meets he maintains a full time job and volunteers with the AMYMSA league. Adding to his workload was a family emergency in February. I am grateful that he has agreed to continue to be our Top Ten Chairman!

    He will have all the meet results uploaded to the database by the USMS SCY deadline.

    Loren - As for adding to the "workload" of the AMYMSA event director by asking for USMS ID#'s, it's a non-issue now that we have an awesome method for submitting meet results and seeing Top Ten USMS swims.

    Mollie - is there a meet or event to which you are specifically referring to that occurred in Allegheny Mountain? Is there something that I should look into or be aware of?

    Rob - Thanks for being a rational, logical, and correct poster!!

    ViveBene - We are looking at July 21st for the Search for Monongy on the Allegheny River.
    Come live with me in the sea said she,
    Down on the ocean floor
    And I'll show you many's a wonderous thing
    That you've never seen before

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    Mr. Secretary coachchris's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Jim,

    Your commentary, while colorful and inflammatory, is a bit misinformed, if not ignorant of some of the facts.

    The LMSC grants recognition of an event such as the AMYMSA Championships, as opposed to a sanction, because a sanction would require that ALL meet participants be USMS registered. Since AMYMSA doesn't require USMS membership, the LMSC cannot grant a sanction, and will not under current USMS rules. In fact, Jim, the sheriff actually knows what she's doing in this case.

    Further, to prevent the issues that arose last year, the LMSC Board (who is now more than a tableful, as opposed to a committee of one or two) discussed paying an official to attend the AMYMSA meet this year to ensure that USMS rules are followed, therefore allowing official results to be submitted to USMS for those members who attend the meet. I was an observer at the meeting, and witnessed a fruitful conversation on the issue that more than addresses your concerns.

    As for results not having been submitted yet, I think the story the LMSC Chair has presented is both realistic and rational for a VOLUNTEER organization. As i believe you know firsthand, Steve is both reasonable and responsible, and I am sure he will come through with the results by the submission deadline, provided the meet hosts come through with appropriate results for submission.

    If you are so concerned that the Allegheny Mountain LMSC leadership isn't doing its job, I suggest two things: first, that you actually become a member of that LMSC, since you live less than 4 miles from the chair, and well within the LMSC's catchment; and second, that you volunteer some of your copious amounts of free time to be part of the solution, not part of what you perceive to be the problem(s).

    Chris Colburn
    Former Chair, Illinois LMSC
    Former Vice Chair, Allegheny Mountain LMSC
    Head Coach, Academy Bullets Masters

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    Very Active Member ViveBene's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by mermaid View Post

    ViveBene - We are looking at July 21st for the Search for Monongy on the Allegheny River.
    Thank you!! July 7 is Kingdom Swim, July 28 is Teal Lake (who could not want to swim in a lake so named?), so July 21 would be great!

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    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by mermaid View Post
    ...Mollie - is there a meet or event to which you are specifically referring to that occurred in Allegheny Mountain? Is there something that I should look into or be aware of?..
    Katherine, nothing specific. I'm always curious how other LMSCs operate, so Jim's post afforded me the chance to ask. Your LMSC is a good one to learn about recognized events, since you guys do so many. My LMSC rarely does recognized events, so I wasn't sure if there were differences in the repercussions of not following the rules for a sanctioned event versus a recognized event. Especially in light of the drive towards getting all LMSCs to be meeting the minimum standards.

    And although I didn't quote it here, Rob, sorry if you felt that I was pestering you (which it seems likely, with the edit of my post being in all caps), but when you responded, you didn't say anything about recognitions. As I said above to Katherine, I'm just curious about the details and differences, since PV doesn't really do recognized events.

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules Committee Co-Vice Chair

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    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmieAvsFan View Post
    And although I didn't quote it here, Rob, sorry if you felt that I was pestering you (which it seems likely, with the edit of my post being in all caps), but when you responded, you didn't say anything about recognitions.
    Mollie, I gave you the wrong impression. Sorry about that… You weren’t pestering me. My YES embedded in your post had more to do with me being lazy and showing off my powers of moderation

    I made my response large and in caps so you would see it. I did not intend to shout. It’s going to take a lot more than a good question to get me shouting on the forum.

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by coachchris View Post
    Jim,

    Your commentary, while colorful and inflammatory, is a bit misinformed, if not ignorant of some of the facts.

    If you are so concerned that the Allegheny Mountain LMSC leadership isn't doing its job, I suggest two things: first, that you actually become a member of that LMSC, since you live less than 4 miles from the chair, and well within the LMSC's catchment; and second, that you volunteer some of your copious amounts of free time to be part of the solution, not part of what you perceive to be the problem(s).

    Chris Colburn
    Former Chair, Illinois LMSC
    Former Vice Chair, Allegheny Mountain LMSC
    Head Coach, Academy Bullets Masters
    This is decidedly not nice.

    Why does it matter to you who Jim is affiliated with now? I think he got desperate and wanted to swim relays with people who attended USMS meets. And Jim has a long history of not having times count when they would qualify for top ten. That would frustrate anyone. Maybe he feels like his former LMSC isn't looking out for the swimmers?

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    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Copeland View Post
    Mollie, I gave you the wrong impression. Sorry about that… You weren’t pestering me. My YES embedded in your post had more to do with me being lazy and showing off my powers of moderation

    I made my response large and in caps so you would see it. I did not intend to shout. It’s going to take a lot more than a good question to get me shouting on the forum.
    Gotcha. I appreciate the clarification, and I'm impressed you don't show off your mod-powers more often

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules Committee Co-Vice Chair

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    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Quote Originally Posted by mermaid View Post
    Jim - The Top Ten Chairman for Allegheny Mountain LMSC, Steve Love, is very responsive and responsible. He has had a very busy February between officiating High School and USA meets he maintains a full time job and volunteers with the AMYMSA league. Adding to his workload was a family emergency in February. I am grateful that he has agreed to continue to be our Top Ten Chairman!

    He will have all the meet results uploaded to the database by the USMS SCY deadline.
    Thank you kindly.

    Quote Originally Posted by coachchris View Post
    Jim,

    Your commentary, while colorful and inflammatory, is a bit misinformed, if not ignorant of some of the facts.

    The LMSC grants recognition of an event such as the AMYMSA Championships, as opposed to a sanction, because a sanction would require that ALL meet participants be USMS registered. Since AMYMSA doesn't require USMS membership, the LMSC cannot grant a sanction, and will not under current USMS rules. In fact, Jim, the sheriff actually knows what she's doing in this case.

    Further, to prevent the issues that arose last year, the LMSC Board (who is now more than a tableful, as opposed to a committee of one or two) discussed paying an official to attend the AMYMSA meet this year to ensure that USMS rules are followed, therefore allowing official results to be submitted to USMS for those members who attend the meet. I was an observer at the meeting, and witnessed a fruitful conversation on the issue that more than addresses your concerns.

    As for results not having been submitted yet, I think the story the LMSC Chair has presented is both realistic and rational for a VOLUNTEER organization. As i believe you know firsthand, Steve is both reasonable and responsible, and I am sure he will come through with the results by the submission deadline, provided the meet hosts come through with appropriate results for submission.

    If you are so concerned that the Allegheny Mountain LMSC leadership isn't doing its job, I suggest two things: first, that you actually become a member of that LMSC, since you live less than 4 miles from the chair, and well within the LMSC's catchment; and second, that you volunteer some of your copious amounts of free time to be part of the solution, not part of what you perceive to be the problem(s).

    Chris Colburn
    Former Chair, Illinois LMSC
    Former Vice Chair, Allegheny Mountain LMSC
    Head Coach, Academy Bullets Masters
    Chris, let me just devote a moment of my copious amounts of free time to say that you, sir, are absolutely correct! I meant "recognized" not "sanctioned" though proving this slip 'o the keyboard ex post facto is, of course, impossible. Let us stipulate that I shall take your tongue lashing on this point without whimper or complaint!

    As for recognition of last year's AMYMSA championships, let me just add that I was there, I talked to the head coach of Clarion University, and he told me that there were, in fact, two certified officials in attendance at the meet, the pool's measurement was in good standing and on file, the timing system was in accordance with all applicable regulations, and he believed that the meet was, indeed, being recognized just as it had been the previous year. I know it may sound petty to you, but two swims I had in this meet, the 500 and the 1000, both would have qualified for #4 spot in my age group had the meet, in fact, been recognized. What I still don't understand is why the same meet had been recognized the year before but not last year.

    As far as leaving our LMSC goes, I had never been able to swim relays until I left our little area. You will recall that I joined the very team that you now coach, Academy Bullets Masters, a few summers ago so that I could take part in the all-relay Saturday part of LCM Nationals in Indianapolis. Despite no shortage of cajoling, I could not talk enough AMAM and/or Team Pitt swimmers into making this meet and would have had to sit out the entire day had I not joined your excellent team. I am not alone here. Glenn Battle, one of the All Americans from our area, has long swum for the Carl Burke team, in part because there have never been any relay opportunities here.

    I subsequently switched to 1776, which has quite a few fellows my age who want to swim relays. Again, I would gladly have remained a Team Pitt swimmer, but this would have guaranteed no relays for the foreseeable future. Our LMSC is so dominated by YMCA swimming at this point that I have long advocated we disband AMAM altogether and join with Colony Zones, which covers people in the eastern part of Pennsylvania already.

    As far as being colorful and inflammatory, at least it does seem to have had a bit of an effect. I am hoping this effect will carry over to the Clarion meet this year, which I am still very much hoping will be recognized (please note I got the terminology right this time! no additional tongue-lashing necessary).

    I do realize that a legitimate case can be made for me as a parasite and/or free rider--an agitator who doesn't have any interest in becoming part of the USMS bureaucracy but who nevertheless wants this to serve his needs. I did attend one USMS convention several years ago, and decided at that time that this world was not for me. I think there are natural born committee men, and there are others, like me, who would rather swallow broken glass than debate codicils to sub rulings. I do pay my USMS dues, receive their excellent magazine, and occasionally manage to swim in meets that are either recognized or sanctioned and where my times do at least occasionally "count" (unless I make the mistake of entering in "open" categories.) Should I be paying more than $40 for this? Maybe. Do I want to quit 1776, re-join Team Pitt, and volunteer my time helping to make AMAM a better place?

    As Bartleby, my role-model in scrivening, so nicely put it, "I prefer not to."

    Finally, and perhaps this is just me, but I believe it's best to avoid "catchments" altogether in whatever forms these might take.

  19. #19
    Very Active Member mermaid's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Leslie & Jim - Regarding the AMYMSA 2011 meet @ Clarion, the simple answer, which has been given to Jim in private, is that no one requested that the meet be recognized. Further, I never announced that it would be recognized, although there were other meets in that series that were recognized.

    In years past, when the LMSC was "podunk" and the committee was all of two people, we (Joe & I) processed the paperwork, announced, promoted, secured & verified meet officials, begged & pleaded USMS members in attendance for their membership ID #'s, verified, processed, & submitted meet results. This was all done to promote, give value, and grow the USMS membership in the podunk Allegheny Mountain LMSC. I also made it a point to be at these meets, mostly as a participant, to verify that the USMS rules for competition were followed by USMS members. Needless to say, it's a lot of work for two people for the benefit of approximately 20 people but I never complained.

    2011 AMYMSA meet @ Clarion was not a meet I was planning to attend and I did check with a few swimmers (obviously I didn't consult Jim) and they were ambivalent with respect to the meet recognition.

    I think it's highly disingenuous of Jim to continue to whine and complain that countless opportunities for fame and national rankings have fallen by the wayside due to my "ineptness". In fact, to my knowledge, the only two events that Jim feels he has been slighted on are the 1000 and 500 from 2011. In short, one as seasoned as Jim is in the swimming world, he should know that if a meet isn't advertised as "sanctioned" or "recognized" maybe he should simply double check (ask the meet director or organization from which he wants recognition) before embarking on record breaking times.

    I am sorry that I unknowingly vexed Jim - I didn't hear a peep from him until approximately 2 weeks after the event and it was only second hand. The part I am confused about is why there are others within the USMS community who have gathered, rallied around his cause, and continue to promote that I am clueless, vexatious, uncaring, and generally motivated by my own self interest (whatever that might be?!), and continue to represent that "Poor Jim was robbed" without knowing all the facts or being directly involved in any of the discussions.

    Also, please note that although I have been very clear, even writing down the desired meet file formats for USMS purposes, I still (and now Steve) get meet results in formats that can't be manipulated (so they need to be re-typed), or our emails simple go unanswered.

    Rob & Mollie - Feel free to carry on your discussion. I was simply worried that there was something that needed to be looked into . . . Thanks for your help and support.
    Come live with me in the sea said she,
    Down on the ocean floor
    And I'll show you many's a wonderous thing
    That you've never seen before

  20. #20
    Very Active Member jim thornton's Avatar
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    Re: 2012 Events in Allegheny Mountain LMSC

    Okay, okay. Let us bury the hatchet where it deserves to be buried.

    All I ask is that:

    1. the meets that were promised to be recognized at the beginning of this whole thread are, in fact, recognized.

    2. the championships at Clarion are recognized this year.

    3. that we all remember the wisdom of the Talmud, which advises:
    Hold no man responsible for what he says in his grief.

    4. that the USMS authorities, like political authorities after the Census, consider gerrymandering the boundaries of the Colony Zones district to extend a slight peninsula--the size and shape of, say, a finger pointing to the northwest--so as to include the municipalities of Sewickley and Ambridge, Pennsylvania.

    Oh, and one more Talmudic passage:

    5. Who can protest and does not, is an accomplice in the act.

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