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Thread: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

  1. #141
    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by rodent View Post
    I will try to contact the Canadians.
    Maybe this will help.
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  2. #142
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by rodent View Post
    So, the bottom line is the Canadians were not officially contacted by the Committee and no measurements were requested but it is assumed by the commitee that they don't exist and that they were never done? I would have the contacted Meet Director to make a definitive determination, but that's just me.
    It isn't the responsibility of the committee or any top ten recorder or any other USMS volunteer to contact the meet hosts of all masters meets that are not sanctioned by USMS to check on measurements just on the off chance that USMS members might be swimming there.

    That is why it is the swimmer's responsibiility to get the measurements and inform their LMSC's top ten recorder about the meet and the results (preferably before the meet so the TTR can tell the swimmer what is needed).

    But why do you assume that the meet directors weren't contacted?

    [ame="http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=238682&postcount=58"]U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Canadian Masters Swimming Championships 2011[/ame]


    Walt Reid also received no measurements with the USMS/FINA record application. USMS records require them. Based on the meet hosts response and since no measurements were included in the record applications, yes we assumed no measurements were done. And again: it isn't our responsibility to get them for recognized meets. I simply don't know how to say it any plainer.

    Feel free to contact the meet hosts. It doesn't matter. The deadline for submission is long past and the top ten lists are final. I don't know what you are hoping to accomplish here, but it sure is a shame that all the time and energy you have expended on this matter wasn't proactive rather than reactive. So are we done? I'm going to assume so.
    Last edited by Chris Stevenson; March 17th, 2012 at 11:43 PM.

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by jaadams1 View Post
    Thanks, I have some friends there and I sent some emails out. If they don't know I will go to some Canadian officials. This must get resolved ASAP!

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by jaadams1 View Post
    I think I've seen this one before... the big boat hits an iceberg and then Elmo saves Christmas right? Not a dry eye in the house!

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    It isn't the responsibility of the committee or any top ten recorder or any other USMS volunteer to contact the meet hosts of all masters meets that are not sanctioned by USMS to check on measurements just on the off chance that USMS members might be swimming there.

    That is why it is the swimmer's responsibiility to get the measurements and inform their LMSC's top ten recorder about the meet and the results (preferably before the meet so the TTR can tell the swimmer what is needed).

    But why do you assume that the meet directors weren't contacted?

    U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - Canadian Masters Swimming Championships 2011


    Walt Reid also received no measurements with the USMS/FINA record application. USMS records require them. Based on the meet hosts response and since no measurements were included in the record applications, yes we assumed no measurements were done. And again: it isn't our responsibility to get them for recognized meets. I simply don't know how to say it any plainer.

    Feel free to contact the meet hosts. It doesn't matter. The deadline for submission is long past and the top ten lists are final. I don't know what you are hoping to accomplish here, but it sure is a shame that all the time and energy you have expended on this matter wasn't proactive rather than reactive. So are we done? I'm going to assume so.
    Congratulations on some nice swims today!
    I did not assume that you didn't contact the meet directors. It does appear that Leslie (not the committee) made an informal inquiry to them and basically was told not to worry.
    I think the "new" policy is a mistake. How will you resolve inconsistent measurements by USMS swimmers? If I were to measure the pools at Worlds and my measurement indicates that they are short and Leslie also measures the pools and it believes she obtains a valid result that shows the pools are the correct length, how do you rectify the competing inconsistent measurements? Either could be right. Both could be wrong. We will never know. What laser and measuring devices are approved by USMS? How often do the devices have to be independently checked for accuracy? Do you have to be trained to use them? I don't see the new USMS policy as being practical, cost effective and reasonable. I don't think we should be reinventing the wheel.
    I like the Canadians procedure, have a professional do it and monitor the situation.
    Have a good meet tomorrow, I will let you know what I find out. Also, think about this. I believe that there is a better solution, you might be able to come up with something.

  6. #146
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    As I said I feel sorry for the disallowed swims.I am glad that I am not the one deciding how to rule.I do want to give a cautionary tale about bulkheads.I already mentioned my disallowed 100 SCM BR.It was at the ASU pool which had hosted Nats the year before so they were an experienced group. The pool was measured before the meet and was in compliance.The pool was measured after the first day and the bulkhead had slipped slightly so that 3 lanes were now 1 cm short.Here is a question for a real dilemma,SCY Nats is frequently held in a bulkhead pool,what if the bulkhead shifts at Nats?
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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    Very Active Member swimshark's Avatar
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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by rodent View Post
    I think the "new" policy is a mistake. How will you resolve inconsistent measurements by USMS swimmers? .
    What "new" policy. This policy has been in place since 2003, I believe. This is not new. The act of a USMS swimmer going to a non-USMS sanctioned event and having to get an official to measure the pool is not new either. The swimmer doesn't measure the pool, an official (the meet director in my case) does.

    The meet you went to happened, it wasn't up to standards for USMS, people were told ahead of time, now get over it.

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by swimshark View Post
    What "new" policy. This policy has been in place since 2003, I believe. This is not new. The act of a USMS swimmer going to a non-USMS sanctioned event and having to get an official to measure the pool is not new either. The swimmer doesn't measure the pool, an official (the meet director in my case) does.

    The meet you went to happened, it wasn't up to standards for USMS, people were told ahead of time, now get over it.
    Actually it is new in that major International meets were exempted when the meet complied with the hosts rules. This is how every other organization does it. The Worlds and previous Canadan Championships were exempted. The three board members who voted for the exemption in this case were right.
    We can't force the rest of the world to run meets our way and we can't have our members measuring pools in international meets. Your passion for accuracy is admirable though misplaced.

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    As I said I feel sorry for the disallowed swims.I am glad that I am not the one deciding how to rule.I do want to give a cautionary tale about bulkheads.I already mentioned my disallowed 100 SCM BR.It was at the ASU pool which had hosted Nats the year before so they were an experienced group. The pool was measured before the meet and was in compliance.The pool was measured after the first day and the bulkhead had slipped slightly so that 3 lanes were now 1 cm short.Here is a question for a real dilemma,SCY Nats is frequently held in a bulkhead pool,what if the bulkhead shifts at Nats?
    Allen, IMO, it is as likely that either the first or second measurement was wrong, as it is that the bulkhead moved one centimeter. Especially if both sides of the bulkhead have lane lines. Just saying.

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    Very Active Member swimshark's Avatar
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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by rodent View Post
    Actually it is new in that major International meets were exempted when the meet complied with the hosts rules. This is how every other organization does it. The Worlds and previous Canadan Championships were exempted. The three board members who voted for the exemption in this case were right.
    We can't force the rest of the world to run meets our way and we can't have our members measuring pools in international meets. Your passion for accuracy is admirable though misplaced.
    And you are not being forced to compete in meets that don't follow our required rules. Please stop beating this dead horse and take this as a lesson learned.
    Last edited by swimshark; March 18th, 2012 at 12:31 PM.

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Someone please close the thread already...
    "Don't be upset by the results you didn't get with the work you didn't do." - K.A. Benthin

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by jaadams1 View Post
    Someone please close the thread already...
    Thread's fine, just needs new ponies
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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by rodent View Post
    It does appear that Leslie (not the committee) made an informal inquiry to them and basically was told not to worry.
    I am wondering a tiny bit if you are actually reading the posts. In response to being told the pool would not be measured every day, I said: "In light of this, how can times count for USMS?" I was told not to worry about FINA. And I wasn't; I was worried about USMS.

    And, again, there was no exemption for Stanford. There were no bulkheads.

    Should have come to the Albatross SCM meet yesterday! You can be assured that Jeff Roddin's meets will always comply with all USMS rules.

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Should have come to the Albatross SCM meet yesterday! You can be assured that Jeff Roddin will always make sure his meet complies with all USMS rules.
    He has to be prepared when The Fortress is in town! There's always paperwork to fill out after she swims!!
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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Poor ponies.

    One of the moderators can close the thread if it gets bad for some reason. As originator I could also but even though much of the same ground is being re-hashed, it is still useful for me to hear some of the objections. I can use that information when I write the rationale supporting a rule change.

    Most of rodent's objections are directed to the rule itself, and the R&T Committee is in substantial agreement on that score: by a 6-1 vote the committee felt that we should submit a rule change so that, in the future, times from international meets that count for FINA purposes should also count for USMS purposes, even if our measurement standards aren't being met in the meet. We'll see if our rule proposal passes.

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post

    Most of rodent's objections are directed to the rule itself, and the R&T Committee is in substantial agreement on that score: by a 6-1 vote the committee felt that we should submit a rule change so that, in the future, times from international meets that count for FINA purposes should also count for USMS purposes, even if our measurement standards aren't being met in the meet. We'll see if our rule proposal passes.
    Though I'm not a "frequent flyer" of international meets, I would love to see this proposal go through. We'll just have to wait and see what happens.
    "Don't be upset by the results you didn't get with the work you didn't do." - K.A. Benthin

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    the R&T Committee is in substantial agreement on that score: by a 6-1 vote the committee felt that we should submit a rule change so that, in the future, times from international meets that count for FINA purposes should also count for USMS purposes, even if our measurement standards aren't being met in the meet. We'll see if our rule proposal passes.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Poor ponies.
    For just $0.00 per month you can give this poor pony a home on your desktop!
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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I am wondering a tiny bit if you are actually reading the posts. In response to being told the pool would not be measured every day, I said: "In light of this, how can times count for USMS?" I was told not to worry about FINA. And I wasn't; I was worried about USMS.

    And, again, there was no exemption for Stanford. There were no bulkheads.

    Should have come to the Albatross SCM meet yesterday! You can be assured that Jeff Roddin's meets will always comply with all USMS rules.
    I do read the posts. I don't agree with your interpetation of what you wrote in the discussion forums of your conversation with the Canadians. But I am sure you did not write everything they told you and just summarized the conversation.
    I have made inquiries with the Canadians who said they will get back to me, but Montreal is running the Canadian Olympic Trials, so they are busy right now.
    I hope I did not offend your sensibilities with my comments. If I wrote something that you feel could be reasonably seen to be offensive, please point it out to me and I will refrain from future comments of that nature. The same goes for Jim. If I made either of you upset by unreasonable comments, I apologize. I know how serious both of you are about Masters Swimming.
    That aside, you do understand my concerns with the current policy going foward? We should accept credible times swum in international meets where those times are swum in conformance with their standards and are reliable as was done in the past. We should not get into the busness of measuring foreign pools. If 5 different untrained people measure a pool they will come up with 5 different results. Any measuring device is only as accurate as the person using it. It must be calibrated frequently and can become innaccurate if dropped or if subjected to intereference. Those are just facts. You may dispute them but they are not offensive.
    Just be patient the Canadians will get back to me and I will let you know what they say.

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by rodent View Post
    I do read the posts. I don't agree with your interpetation of what you wrote in the discussion forums of your conversation with the Canadians. But I am sure you did not write everything they told you and just summarized the conversation.
    I have made inquiries with the Canadians who said they will get back to me, but Montreal is running the Canadian Olympic Trials, so they are busy right now.
    I hope I did not offend your sensibilities with my comments. If I wrote something that you feel could be reasonably seen to be offensive, please point it out to me and I will refrain from future comments of that nature. The same goes for Jim. If I made either of you upset by unreasonable comments, I apologize. I know how serious both of you are about Masters Swimming.
    That aside, you do understand my concerns with the current policy going foward? We should accept credible times swum in international meets where those times are swum in conformance with their standards and are reliable as was done in the past. We should not get into the busness of measuring foreign pools. If 5 different untrained people measure a pool they will come up with 5 different results. Any measuring device is only as accurate as the person using it. It must be calibrated frequently and can become innaccurate if dropped or if subjected to intereference. Those are just facts. You may dispute them but they are not offensive.
    Just be patient the Canadians will get back to me and I will let you know what they say.
    Actually, I think I copied and pasted the response from the meet manager verbatim and put it in quotes in the previous thread. No summarizing.

    And my interpretation of the email was dead on. Despite the rhetoric about FINA "compliance," they explicitly told me they wouldn't measure the pool each day, and I knew the times wouldn't count for USMS. Turns out, they didn't. I did my due diligence.

    No sensibilities offended at all! I was just puzzled by some of your comments. I completely agree with the R&T Committee proposal and hope international meets count for everyone going forward. Definitely in favor of having more swimmers' times count.

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    Re: Preliminary Top 10 Listings Available for SCM 2011

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Poor ponies.

    One of the moderators can close the thread if it gets bad for some reason. As originator I could also but even though much of the same ground is being re-hashed, it is still useful for me to hear some of the objections. I can use that information when I write the rationale supporting a rule change.

    Most of rodent's objections are directed to the rule itself, and the R&T Committee is in substantial agreement on that score: by a 6-1 vote the committee felt that we should submit a rule change so that, in the future, times from international meets that count for FINA purposes should also count for USMS purposes, even if our measurement standards aren't being met in the meet. We'll see if our rule proposal passes.
    This is a good idea going foward! However, I still want to hear the Canadians side of the story!

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