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Thread: Swim Coaches in Trouble

  1. #61
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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Aymese View Post
    What do you mean by the problem is stopped? Is it because the coach's behavior has already been brought to light by the media? Just curious
    The problem is coaches taking advantage of young kids, that's what needs to stop.

  2. #62
    Very Active Member gobears's Avatar
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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    I agree. The machinations of a few Masters swimmers will not change anything about the long-standing issues between adult male coaches and preteen or teenage female swimmers. There is often an intense relationship that occasionally crosses the moral line of acceptance, as well as the legal line of statutory rape or sexual harassment. It is a tiny relative number of coaches that succumb to their weakness and the vast majority pay for it with withering scrutiny.

    The original poster can lock this thread at any time. Until he does, we can only surmise that he has not had enough of this topic, even though it has nothing to do with Masters swimming directly.
    Some of us, who've been swimming since the 80's (and earlier), are actually really glad all of this is finally coming to light. I have heard these kinds of rumors about Mitch Ivey since I was in high school in the 80's. Of course times have changed and we no longer look askance at the underaged female swimmer (which is exactly what society used to do in these instances). It's about time the adult coaches are held responsible for abusing their positions and these relationships.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    "This is one thread that I would like to see end... because the problem is stopped. I hate the way it keeps coming back with new reports of problems"

    Quote Originally Posted by Aymese View Post
    What do you mean by the problem is stopped? Is it because the coach's behavior has already been brought to light by the media? Just curious
    I read this to mean that he wished the thread would stop because coaches were no longer taking advantage of young swimmers and that there would no longer be a need for the thread to continue. I did not read it as stop the thread to hide the problem.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    I don't think the problem's stopped. I think there are many who haven't been caught. There has to be a some USMS swimmers who were victims & suffer in silence.

    A friend of mine & her sister were victims of a coach who hasn't been caught. She said she's made peace, forgiven him & moved on. She said her sister said "He ruined my life." This coach was never caught, he retired from coaching, he's well thoguht of in his community and has a pool named after him.

    The problem isn't over, USA swimming now has SAFE SPORT, families might be more likely to find out and report and law enforcement might be more motivated to pursue and prosecute, but culprits have to be caught and victims (who might not think of themselves as victims) have to find the courage to speak up and when a child does, the adults around the child need to help them do the right thing.

    I wish this was over.
    Last edited by ande; December 10th, 2013 at 03:37 PM.

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    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    I don't think the problem's stopped. I think there are many who haven't been caught. There has to be a some USMS swimmers who were victims & suffer in silence.
    Perhaps so. Do you think you will find them on the forums? Just how do you think USMS should go about investigating the atrocities promulgated by these coaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    A friend of mine & her sister were victims of a coach who hasn't been caught. She said she's made peace, forgiven him & moved on. She said her sister said "He ruined my life." This coach was never caught, he retired from coaching, he's well thoguht of in his community and has a pool named after him.
    As I have said before, if you and/or the victims are not willing to out the coach, it is as if it never happened at all. So that episode fiction until it is aired publicly. This is one of the problems (and unfortunate coverups) of the entire scenario, that fact that the victims are willing , even after many years, to let the perpetrator get away with an illegal act, maybe because the victim feels somehow partly at fault, when she is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    The problem isn't over, USA swimming now has SAFE SPORT, families might be more likely to find out and report and law enforcement might be more motivated to pursue and prosecute, but culprits have to be caught and victims (who might not think of themselves as victims) have to find the courage to speak up and when a child does, the adults around the child need to help them do the right thing.

    I wish this was over.
    The base problem will never be over. Young athletic girls, dripping wet in barely any clothing, coached by young men (mostly), several hours per day, creates an atmosphere ripe with temptation that is difficult to resist for some coaches. Considering the size of USA Swimming (400,000), it is frankly amazing that this doesn't happen more often.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

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    Very Active Member gobears's Avatar
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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    The base problem will never be over. Young athletic girls, dripping wet in barely any clothing, coached by young men (mostly), several hours per day, creates an atmosphere ripe with temptation that is difficult to resist for some coaches. Considering the size of USA Swimming (400,000), it is frankly amazing that this doesn't happen more often.
    I don't know. I don't think men are truly as incapable of resisting temptation as our culture likes to tell them they are.

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    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by gobears View Post
    I don't know. I don't think men are truly as incapable of resisting temptation as our culture likes to tell them they are.
    Perhaps you should have ended with your first sentence. I was remarking on the fact that there are so many coaches that do, in fact, resist temptation.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

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    Very Active Member aquageek's Avatar
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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    ....creates an atmosphere ripe with temptation that is difficult to resist for some coaches. Considering the size of USA Swimming (400,000), it is frankly amazing that this doesn't happen more often.
    Child abuse isn't a temptation. It's a crime. What is amazing is that people marginalize the impact by referring to it as a temptation and that it is amazing that it doesn't happen more often.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by aquageek View Post
    Child abuse isn't a temptation. It's a crime. What is amazing is that people marginalize the impact by referring to it as a temptation and that it is amazing that it doesn't happen more often.
    This.

    Society used to silently condone this behavior. In fact, Michael's argument about temptation excused the older men and stigmatized the young women when this kind of thing occurred. It seems kind of harsh that these older coaches are getting called out now when no one seemed to care 30+ years ago. And, yet, when I think of how they've affected young athletes' lives, it's not harsh at all.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by aquageek View Post
    Child abuse isn't a temptation. It's a crime. What is amazing is that people marginalize the impact by referring to it as a temptation and that it is amazing that it doesn't happen more often.
    The act is a crime, the setting is the temptation, to some. They are not the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by gobears View Post
    Society used to silently condone this behavior. In fact, Michael's argument about temptation excused the older men and stigmatized the young women when this kind of thing occurred. It seems kind of harsh that these older coaches are getting called out now when no one seemed to care 30+ years ago. And, yet, when I think of how they've affected young athletes' lives, it's not harsh at all.
    Society has never condoned this behavior, although what was done was usually less public than now. My "argument" excusing older men does not exist. The victims (mostly girls) were described as that, victims.

    Just because there were no forums on which to anonymously rant in the 1970s does not mean no one cared. Because it is such a traumatic personal experience, sometimes the authorities were not called, the coach was just fired and went elsewhere. I would guess that they (the coaches) were even given good references in order to avoid lawsuits and keep the coach far away. This was to protect the victims, although it apparently did not in some cases, owing to the behavioral and psychological problems some have reported. This is probably due to the lack of closure, even though that would have been devastating to the young victims at the time.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    Perhaps so. Do you think you will find them on the forums? Just how do you think USMS should go about investigating the atrocities promulgated by these coaches?
    There are a lot of lurkers on these forums. People who rarely, if ever post. Perhaps bringing light to the topic will empower a victim to speak up. There are teenagers who peruse and occasionally post here. Again, seeing coaches being disciplined may help give a young swimmer the courage to speak up. I don't know that USMS has a responsibility to investigate USAS or NCAA coaches unless they are USMS coaches too (an issue of jurisdiction?). But I reiterate, discussing it here awakens the reader to the issue, the masters swimmer can be vigilant with their own children or their friends' children, or if they were a victim in the past, they may be able to heal, learning it wasn't their fault.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    The act is a crime, the setting is the temptation, to some. They are not the same thing.
    And it's a setting that's conducive to predatory behavior by those who commit these kind of crimes, just like any other setting where adults in positions of power can easily create situations where they're alone with children. These predators are not going to just go away, so we need to find ways to make sure the situations don't happen.

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    Very Active Member gobears's Avatar
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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    Society has never condoned this behavior, although what was done was usually less public than now. My "argument" excusing older men does not exist. The victims (mostly girls) were described as that, victims.
    I should clarify. When the girls were 11 years old, I don't think guys got away with much IF things became public. When girls were older than that, say 15 or 16, I think people quickly turned their heads, thus, condoning the behavior by not condemning it. Read Suzette Moran's story. Look at how many older coaches got away with multiple relationships with teenaged swimmers. Listen to rock music from the 70's - 16 year olds were desired - not off limits to older guys.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Do you think you will find them on the forums? Just how do you think USMS should go about investigating the atrocities promulgated by these coaches?
    I don't think we will find them on these forums. I'm just sharing info to provide topics for discussion.
    I don't think USMS should investigate accusations against USA Swimming coaches by USA swimming athletes.
    USMS should investigate accusations against USMS coaches by USMS swimmers.

    "it is frankly amazing that this doesn't happen more often.
    my guess is it has happened many times than reported sometimes
    Last edited by ande; December 11th, 2013 at 03:11 PM.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    some might find this article from 1993 interesting

    Swim Coach's Past Haunts Florida November 14, 1993

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    Young athletic girls, dripping wet in barely any clothing, coached by young men (mostly), several hours per day, creates an atmosphere ripe with temptation that is difficult to resist for some coaches. Considering the size of USA Swimming (400,000), it is frankly amazing that this doesn't happen more often.
    The child's clothing, or lack thereof, is not the problem; girls don't typically show up in church "dripping wet in barely any clothing" but they were abused just the same. The root problem is an adult exploiting a power imbalance while having access to a child without other adults around. Describing the issue as "[y]oung athletic girls, dripping wet in barely any clothing" sexualizes or romanticizes a relationship that is not sexual or romantic but instead is abusive and exploitative; whether intentional or not, that characterization shifts some blame to the girls.
    "Some cause happiness wherever they go; others whenever . . . ." -- Oscar Wilde

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    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by JWAJack View Post
    The child's clothing, or lack thereof, is not the problem; girls don't typically show up in church "dripping wet in barely any clothing" but they were abused just the same. The root problem is an adult exploiting a power imbalance while having access to a child without other adults around. Describing the issue as "[y]oung athletic girls, dripping wet in barely any clothing" sexualizes or romanticizes a relationship that is not sexual or romantic but instead is abusive and exploitative; whether intentional or not, that characterization shifts some blame to the girls.
    While I agree that the root problem is definitely a power imbalance, the characterization of the girls was a description of the circumstance, not the issue. It is possible that some of the girls actually liked some of the extra attention, but neither does that lay any blame upon them. All blame must lie with the adult perpetrator. They were in charge at all times, they alone must be held accountable.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    Does anyone have mr curl's prison booking photo?

    I thought in the 1980s and still think he and some other coaches were arrogant jerks.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble

    I read the victim's statement and have a remark on the culture of mid 1980s curl swim club

    I recall t shirts with the phrase 'curl girls go faster' worn by a female teammate/h.s. Classmate. This is of course a double entendre.

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    Re: Swim Coaches in Trouble


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