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Thread: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

  1. #61
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by pwb View Post

    The sprinters can make do with a 4 or 6 lane pool (since, of course, their events don't take any time so it doesn't matter how many heats

    Pay no attention to the sandbaggers in our midst, put your big boy/girl suit & goggles on, and get your head back in your own lane.

    From reading this thread, the sprinters don't seem to be the worst sandbaggers so we should get the fastest pools!

    +1

    When I use a (perfectly legal) split request, I put in an actual "estimated" final time and advise people in adjacent lanes what I am doing. It's hard for me to believe they're traumatized by it.

  2. #62
    Very Active Member joel schmaltz's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    [quoteif you are truly so concerned about what the other swimmers in your heat are going to do, then you can easily find out what you should expect them to do (see times database, study past meet results, talk with other swimmers, etc.)][/quote]
    + 1

  3. #63
    Green Mountain Boy rxleakem's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    with Joel's +1 - it's easy to look up past performances to flush out a sandbagger. Like I mentioned, there are folks who do it all the time, regardless of the distance. Someone might be motivated by either crushing the competition or trying to keep up with faster folks to get a better time. I do my best to be concerned with my time at the end of the race.
    ..<))><

  4. #64
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Look, if it makes it easier for you to rationalize sandbagging by telling me I have my trunks in a bunch over this, I am fine with that. The reality is that some of your fellow Masters swimmers don't particularly like it.

  5. #65
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    I think the bottom line is by sandbagging you are putting your interests over the interests of the meet as a whole. Most meet directors who opine on this topic don't seem real keen on sandbagging and that tells me all I need to know.

  6. #66
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by pwb View Post
    • On 400s and above, it is exceedingly rare in Masters that you have enough time parity between multiple swimmers in the same race to really create race & pace conditions across the heat.
    except for our 500 in greensboro. where there were 6 national champions (from that very meet) in the water at the same darn time and within 2secs of everyone at the 450 flip!!!

    p.s. i still want a do over on that one!

  7. #67
    Very Active Member thewookiee's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Has Kurt Dickson weighed in on this thread yet?

  8. #68
    Very Active Member pwb's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by sunruh View Post
    except for our 500 in greensboro. where there were 6 national champions (from that very meet) in the water at the same darn time and within 2secs of everyone at the 450 flip!!!

    p.s. i still want a do over on that one!
    I know, but, in all my years of Masters swimming, that was a rarity ... a very beautiful and wonderful rarity. Most of the time, even with so many people seeded so close, the results don't pan out.

    I guess my (*certainly not last*) view on this is this: in a pool, once someone is more than 2-3 seconds ahead of you, they're generally gone from your field of vision for much of the race. Also, at least for me, I can never see anyone besides the two lanes next to me, so what most of the people do in a heat never comes into my consciousness.
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  9. #69
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by thewookiee View Post
    Has Kurt Dickson weighed in on this thread yet?
    Nope...I'm told he feels strongly both ways.

  10. #70
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by pwb View Post
    I know, but, in all my years of Masters swimming, that was a rarity
    I agree. In masters swimming you definitely shouldn't count on having a race with anyone else. It's nice when it pans out, but it doesn't happen that much--especially in the longer races. I'll bet you that even at Nationals in the 1650 it's rare to have a heat where everyone finishes within 30 seconds of each other.

  11. #71
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    What % error in seed time would represent sandbag behavior?

  12. #72
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    What % error in seed time would represent sandbag behavior?
    All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again.

    [ame="http://forums.usms.org/showpost.php?p=244617&postcount=291"]U.S. Masters Swimming Discussion Forums - View Single Post - No sandbagging: It's the law[/ame]
    "I blame you, James!" - knelson

  13. #73
    Green Mountain Boy rxleakem's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again.
    http://images5.fanpop.com/image/phot...76-400-264.jpg
    ..<))><

  14. #74
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by jaadams1 View Post
    You guys should both sandbag the 1650 and aim for Heat 1 lanes 4 & 5.
    i'll let PWB win the first 1625 and i'll just win the last 25.

  15. #75
    Very Active Member gobears's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by gull View Post
    Look, if it makes it easier for you to rationalize sandbagging by telling me I have my trunks in a bunch over this, I am fine with that. The reality is that some of your fellow Masters swimmers don't particularly like it.
    But there are all kinds of things in masters meets that are annoying. I often have to swim next to either REALLY fast, really young or male swimmers in the fastest heat of my best event at meets in my LMSC. My last two zone meets I had to swim in the lane next to a 23 year old woman who went somewhere in the vicinity of a 2:15 for a 200 breaststroke. I (at 46) can manage somewhere around a 2:40. Do I like watching her kick my ass? Not really, but I can't let that affect my race.

    I often end up swimming in other meets with a heat of 4 men and maybe one other woman. Not ideal. But workable. In masters we rarely have the luxury of a perfectly seeded heat!

  16. #76
    Farewell Lily smontanaro's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by gobears View Post
    My last two zone meets I had to swim in the lane next to a 23 year old woman who went somewhere in the vicinity of a 2:15 for a 200 breaststroke. I (at 46) can manage somewhere around a 2:40. Do I like watching her kick my ass? Not really, but I can't let that affect my race.
    Hmmm... Maybe I have a future as a motivational swimmer. People could pay me to swim in their meets, give me seed times to match theirs so we swim in adjoining lanes, then they can handily beat me. (These days I'd be happy with a 2:40 200 free.)

    Skip

  17. #77
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time


  18. #78
    Very Active Member gobears's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
    Hmmm... Maybe I have a future as a motivational swimmer. People could pay me to swim in their meets, give me seed times to match theirs so we swim in adjoining lanes, then they can handily beat me. (These days I'd be happy with a 2:40 200 free.)

    Skip
    lol. My freestyle is nothing to write home about! Forgot to mention that one of the men that has often been in my 200 br heat is David Guthrie - who is not only a big guy but is smoking fast. Talk about having to swim your own race...

  19. #79
    Very Active Member Bill Sive's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    I sent an e-mail to the USMS Rules Committee response as follows:

    Article 104.5.5(11), page 35, addresses this issue. Article 104 governs national championship meets and is “Recommended for all other championship meets when possible” (see parenthetical phrase below the title of article 104). However, it is not required for all other championship meets. If used at an “other championship” meet, the LMSC would need to make a decision to use championship rules in article 104 and announce such in the meet information. As you can see from the text of 104.5.5(11), this issue has to be resolved as part of the seeding process. Except for 102.13.14, there are no penalties for entering a time that is much faster or much slower than the resulting final time. 102.13.14 only addresses a swimmer who misrepresents a seed time causing significant delay of the meet (swims significantly slower than the seed time).

    Rules in Part 1 can be enhanced, i.e. rule changes can be proposed, during the next rules year which is 2014. Only emergency rule changes to Part 1 will be considered in 2013.

    Kathy Casey, Chair
    USMS Rules Committee



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