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Thread: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

  1. #21
    Very Active Member ourswimmer's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    Sometimes beginners don't know what their times are.
    Then they should do time trials in practice to find out. Anyway, we are not talking here about people who swam 5-20 seconds faster (or slower) than their seed times; we are talking about people who swam 5-20 minutes faster.

    A meet is not the place to find out whether or not you can finish an event at all. You can do that on your own time. A meet is a place to find out how fast you can finish an event. There's no discourtesy in being slow, but I am with those who believe it is extremely discourteous to seed yourself as if you are slow when you are not.

  2. #22
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    A lane is a lane. Who cares?
    because i like racing in the lane next to you Ande!

  3. #23
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    The NT heats are usually only 2 lanes deep, they could use more lane occupant s

    That's what NQT is used (above posts)

  4. #24
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    I don't want to go with best times swum because sometimes you know you aren't able to do those times due to life interfering.Some times weird stuff just happens.I have a friend who is one of the best butterflyers in her age group.At Nats she entered a very slow time,smoked her heat and won the event over all.Sandbagging?Not when you find out she had just finished treatment for breast cancer and was more stunned than anyone with her result.
    As I said,weird things happen.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  5. #25
    Very Active Member joel schmaltz's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    I would guess that the precentage of athletes that enter seed times similar to Bill's post is very small at meets. I would also guess that the individuals in his example swam all three of those events (1500,800,400). Or at least two of them.

  6. #26
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by ourswimmer View Post
    There's no discourtesy in being slow, but I am with those who believe it is extremely discourteous to seed yourself as if you are slow when you are not.
    Agreed. And I would imagine many of those who should legitimately be in the first heat or two don't want to be swamped by someone who's going to lap them in a 100.

  7. #27
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    One time, at a meet, someone other than me sandbagged a time, and it totally affected me so bad.

    Not.

    Aside from less-than-optimal seeding at large meets, what happens when someone, say, enters a seed time of 8 minutes for a 500 free and goes 4:40? Or when someone enters a 1:15 for the 100 free and goes :48?

    1. The people in the heat with the sandbagger get smoked. Maybe it makes them look slow. But in Masters, there is always going to be someone who is going to blow you out of the water. You learn to deal with it.
    2. The people in later heats say "o jeez that guy in heat one just went SO FAST wow!" and either a) have motivation to go faster or b) get smoked. And anyone who complains about getting beaten by someone in a slower heat "because they should have entered a faster time" is just a whiner.

    I can see a meet director facepalming because the meet goes overly long, and I can see people in the final events of a meet getting antsy because they have to wait a long time to swim. But really, there are many perfectly valid reasons to enter a slow time, and there are many perfectly valid reasons to go faster (or slower) than your seed time. Less-than-optimal meet timelines are another thing that happens in Masters. You learn to deal with it.

  8. #28
    Active Member swimsuit addict's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sive View Post
    How do you folks feel about persons who misrepresent him/her self in this manner?
    What I think is that those sandbaggers are sorely lacking in creativity. Why should zeroes get all the love when there are 9 other perfectly good digits out there?

    If this trend escalates, heat sheet typesetters will risk running out of 0's.

  9. #29
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by That Guy View Post
    search all you want, you will find no opinions on
    this esteemed
    forum about such trivial matters.
    for if there were any,
    the moderators might have to step in and have a
    word with some of us, or even hit us over the head with a
    sandbag. forsooth!
    That's why I am just reading this time!

  10. #30
    sǝssɐןb ɹǝʇʇǝq ʇǝb That Guy's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by sickfish View Post
    "o jeez that guy in heat one just went SO FAST wow!"
    hey now...

    I just looked up my results to figure out the answer to this question: "when's the last time that I was in heat 1 of an event that had multiple heats?" answer: February 2006, at my first Masters meet. I had been out of the sport for so long that I had forgotten all about the concept of estimating times, and entered the meet with NT's. Smilies unrelated
    "I blame you, James!" - knelson

  11. #31
    Very Active Member Bill Sive's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    These particular swimmers did have a large discrepancy between their seed time vs actual swim time.

    I bring to light the following regarding these swimmers:

    Swimmer A - committe member of our LMSC
    Swimmer B - member of the Host Team
    Swimmer C - member of one of the elite teams in our area
    Swimmer D - member of Host Team for USMS Summer Nationals in 2013

    I am expecting too much to expect the Host Team, Elite Team, and LMSC to set an example for others to follow. This behavior is flat out not acceptable. If the seed times were within a few minutes who cares, but as originally noted these seeds times exceed 10 minutes.

    I'm slow anyway, but improving, I was seeded to Heat 3 with the slowest seed time, and came in last in my Heat. On the flip side, I was 6th in my age group.

    I was also told that this would not be done in USAS and College swimming, because, unless a person has not swum an event at all, a prior swim time would be used.

    My Grandmother would wack these swimmers with her cane and tell them to be good, honest sportspersons.

  12. #32
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Which begs the question, why do we even bother with seed times? Just let everyone grab a lane. Like festival seating at a concert.

  13. #33
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Sive View Post
    This behavior is flat out not acceptable.
    So... trade sanctions?
    "I blame you, James!" - knelson

  14. #34
    Farewell Lily smontanaro's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Unlike festival seating, there's an excellent chance that the cutie in the next lane is going to smoke me. Not quite like finding yourself next to a cutie at a concert.

  15. #35
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Perhaps we could use an online lane selector for meets similar to what the airlines use for seat selection. Choose your heat and your lane in advance. The host could charge a bit more for the prime lanes and heats.

  16. #36
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    My wife was in heat 1 lane 4 for the 1500 at the SPMS meet last weekend.This meant that if everyone had gone their seed time she would have won her heat.She has been swimming long enough to know there is likely to be someone in that heat who will crush their seed time so when 2 swimmers were way in front of her right away she knew to swim her own race and swam her age group PB , 2 min under seed time.The woman in lane 5 was one of the fast swimmers and her counter told me she had to leave early and probably should have been in heat 3.The woman in lane 8(as I recall) was even faster and lapped the woman in lane 5 so that they reached the end of the pool at the same time on lane 8's bell lap.I suppose the lane 5 woman thought it was her bell lap because she stopped when she finished that lap.Her counter and I yelled at her to continue and she finally did after losing a significant amount of time.I am sure some of you think there is a moral here,I am just reporting what I saw.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  17. #37
    Very Active Member gobears's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    My wife was in heat 1 lane 4 for the 1500 ...She has been swimming long enough to know there is likely to be someone in that heat who will crush their seed time so when 2 swimmers were way in front of her right away she knew to swim her own race and swam her age group PB , 2 min under seed time.
    This is an important swimming skill to learn. The best athletes are the ones who know how to swim their own races and stay competitive despite adverse circumstances. If sandbaggers completely throw you off your game, they may not be the only problem...

    Let me amend a little. I would never intentionally sandbag because I do think it's kind of cheesy. That said, letting someone else's sandbagging sabotage your swim is your (mental) choice...
    Last edited by gobears; December 5th, 2012 at 05:56 PM.

  18. #38
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    It is very easy to try to stay with another swimmer that should know what they swim BUT you need to know what you are able to swim !!
    These swimmers that put in a No time seed that go way fast bug me.

    Ask them
    & they say that they never swam that distance in "a meet"

  19. #39
    Very Active Member ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Note to those of you swimming at St. Nick's SCM meet: I entered the 400 IM and 400 free with NT's, because I didn't have a clue what to put as a seed time. I have only entered those events once- last summer at Dixie Zone LCM Championships. I have had injuries since then, I haven't trained SCM, my SCY training times have been , I'm still new at distance events...



    P.S. Swimosaur and EKW: See you at Georgia Tech! Look for me in the stands on the far side of the pool; it's less crowded over there. EKW, I will be in a black and blue Yingfa suit and white USMS cap.
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  20. #40
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    Re: Seeding - Seed Time vs Actual Time

    Personally, I would like to see a (-) 10% margin allowed from PB to entry time. Masters swimmers have periods in their lives in which injuries, illness, work, or family matters interfere with their training. Perhaps going into a given meet, they know that they won't be able to perform their best. We should allow them to enter with what they feel is a realistic time. In the day and age of computers, no swimmer should be allowed to enter faster than their best and a stop-gate of 10% slower than their best can be implemented. For those doing the math, that's 6 seconds for a 1:00 a 100 Free, equaling a 1:06. I got pretty tired of hearing from the announcer during LCM Nationals, “Great job in Lane 4: Dropping 18 seconds from their entry time.” I rarely need to pushed (although helpful!) by those in nearby lanes to swim my race, but I find it very distracting to have someone 2 body lengths in front of me. For slower swimmers, it actually borders on rudeness to be lapping them during their event in which they are trying their best.

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