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Thread: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

  1. #1
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    So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    I'm surprised that the numbers are relatively so small compared to other SCY venues. Greensboro wasn't exactly on the road to somewhere, and everyone has an Indy connection. What's up?

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    USMS Membership Director Jayhawk's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Here's a list of all of the USMS Short Course Nationals meets with their attendance.

    Year Location Attendance
    1970 Amarillo, Texas 46
    1971 Amarillo, Texas 108
    1972 San Mateo, Calif. 325
    1973 Santa Monica, Calif. 500
    1974 Fort Lauderdale, Fla. 561
    1975 Fort Lauderdale, Fla. 663
    1976 Mission Viejo, Calif. 800
    1977 Fort Lauderdale, Fla. 611
    1978 San Antonio, Texas 560
    1979 Mission Viejo, Calif. 1,020
    1980 Fort Lauderdale, Fla. 875
    1981 Irvine, Calif. 1,209
    1982 The Woodlands, Texas 910
    1983 Fort Lauderdale, Fla. 1,208
    1984 Industry Hills, Calif. 1,227
    1985 Milwaukee, Wisc. 1,021
    1986 Fort Pierce, Fla. 1,231
    1987 Stanford Univ., Calif. 2,328
    1988 Austin, Texas 1,405
    1989 Boca Raton, Fla. 1,755
    1990 Los Angeles, Calif. 1,592
    1991 Nashville, Tenn. 1,529
    1992 Chapel Hill, N.C. 1,502
    1993 Santa Clara, Calif. 2,055
    1994 Tempe, Ariz. 1,912
    1995 Fort Lauderdale, Fla. 1,992
    1996 Cupertino, Calif. 2,048
    1997 Federal Way, Wash. 1,438
    1998 Indianapolis, Ind. 1,738
    1999 Santa Clara, Calif. 2,060
    2000 Indianapolis, Ind. 1,390
    2001 Santa Clara, Calif. 1,850
    2002 Honolulu, Hawaii 1,103
    2003 Tempe, Ariz. 1,922
    2004 Indianapolis, Ind. 1,564
    2005 Fort Lauderdale, Fla. 1,620
    2006 Coral Springs, Fla. 1,276
    2007 Federal Way, Wash. 1,456
    2008 Austin, Texas 1,865
    2009 Clovis, Calif. 1,582
    2010 Atlanta, Ga. 1,975
    2011 Mesa, Ariz. 1,817
    2012 Greensboro, N.C. 1,864
    Last edited by Jayhawk; April 10th, 2013 at 11:56 PM.

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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Indy may be competing with the Pan Am Games. Kinda hard to travel to both/taper for both because they're only 5-6 weeks apart.

    Off topic here, but does anyone know whether a high school kid has ever swum at masters nationals? I almost opted to skip Indy, but my 18 year old high school senior wants to go and is dragging me along.
    Last edited by The Fortress; April 11th, 2013 at 12:05 AM.

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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I almost opted to skip Indy, but my 18 year old high school senior wants to go and is dragging me along.
    That's great! You'll have to track down the oldest competitor at Indy and get a shot of your daughter with that person.

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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Over 2000 participants three times, all of those three locations are within 15 miles.

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    Age Grouper in Training jaadams1's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    In comparison to other Nationals hosted at Indy in the past, it looks like this one is actually a little more attended than previous years. Attendance really is more based on locality to larger population centers and/or warmth/fun stuff to do aside from swimming as well.
    "Don't be upset by the results you didn't get with the work you didn't do." - K.A. Benthin

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    www.inlandnwmasters.org

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    Very Active Member Swimosaur's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Indy is not a small showing.

    Here's a graph of the data Jayhawk posted above. To my eye, it looks like attendance has been pretty stable over the last 25 years, albeit with a lot of variance. The mean attendance from 1989-2013 is 1702 (standard deviation 259). The pink line represents the mean over the 25 year period. As you can see, attendance this year, at 1636, is pretty close to the mean.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    In reality the Indy attendance probably is about what should be expected. I think Greensboro last year was on the high side. Probably due to it being in a brand new facility, no other competing meets, and maybe even a little Olympic year excitement.

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    In reality the Indy attendance probably is about what should be expected. I think Greensboro last year was on the high side. Probably due to it being in a brand new facility, no other competing meets, and maybe even a little Olympic year excitement.
    There was an incredibly high turnout from within the NC LMSC which is what I think pushed it higher than normal. They did a great job at the USMS equivalent of "GOTV."

    It is interesting to me that nationals attendance doesn't really correlate with overall USMS membership numbers for the last 25 years. Possibly that could partly reflect the fact that too many people degrades the nationals experience somewhat (longer days, crowded warmup areas, etc). Maybe the current average is right around an optimum spot for that.

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    Back is faster than Fly poolraat's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    "Off topic here, but does anyone know whether a high school kid has ever swum at masters nationals? I almost opted to skip Indy, but my 18 year old high school senior wants to go and is dragging me along."

    Jared was in his senior year when he went with me to Nationals in Mesa in 2011.
    I have entered the snapdragon stage of my life (Part of me has snapped and the rest of me is draggin ).

  11. #11
    USMS Membership Director Jayhawk's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swimosaur View Post
    Indy is not a small showing.

    Here's a graph of the data Jayhawk posted above. To my eye, it looks like attendance has been pretty stable over the last 25 years, albeit with a lot of variance. The mean attendance from 1989-2013 is 1702 (standard deviation 259). The pink line represents the mean over the 25 year period. As you can see, attendance this year, at 1636, is pretty close to the mean.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Wow, I've been out-geeked. I thought I was doing pretty good to figure out how to insert a table into a post. Didn't think of graphing or statistical analysis.

  12. #12
    Farewell Lily smontanaro's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawk View Post
    Wow, I've been out-geeked.
    That's saying something! Perhaps Swimosaur should be invited to join the prestigious ranks of the top ten recorders.

  13. #13
    USMS Membership Director Jayhawk's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
    That's saying something! Perhaps Swimosaur should be invited to join the prestigious ranks of the top ten recorders.
    I'm way ahead of you. Already recruited him. Southeastern LMSC.

    Oh, the dangers of exposing your geekness on the forums....

  14. #14
    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresnoid View Post
    Over 2000 participants three times, all of those three locations are within 15 miles.
    All in the largest LMSC by far with the best organization and most clubs, just north of the second largest LMSC. Indy is in a medium sized LMSC surrounded by medium to small LMSCs. The diehards will travel anywhere, but most attendance is going to be locals.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    All in the largest LMSC by far with the best organization and most clubs, just north of the second largest LMSC.
    Same is true about the Clovis meet (1582).

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    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresnoid View Post
    Same is true about the Clovis meet (1582).

    True enough.

    That still goes to show that most entries are local, since so many easterners on these forums made loud proclamations that they would not go because it wasn't worth it somehow. Maybe they thought they were in jeopardy of being scalped by indian war parties. Those of us in the west know that hardly ever happens anymore.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    True enough.

    That still goes to show that most entries are local, since so many easterners on these forums made loud proclamations that they would not go because it wasn't worth it somehow. Maybe they thought they were in jeopardy of being scalped by indian war parties. Those of us in the west know that hardly ever happens anymore.
    Remarkable restraint for an LA denizen - you avoided Fresno bashing. One factor that probably reduced out of town attendance for the Clovis meet is airfare into Fresno is usually way more expensive than most destinations; high enough that it is often worth driving to SJC, SFO or LAX before getting on a plane.

  18. #18
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    I loved Clovis nationals, it was lightly attended but it was outdoors with nice weather and there was an insane amount of space for warmups. Often I had a lane to myself for pre-event warmups and could do some good pace work. Even the pre-meet warmups weren't too crowded since there was something like 40 SC lanes available.

    People who DO go to Indy this nationals are probably in for a similar treat; enjoy.

  19. #19
    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresnoid View Post
    Remarkable restraint for an LA denizen - you avoided Fresno bashing.

    I am not the usual LA person you would expect. I grew up visiting family in Kerman (grapes and cotton, really hated Cesar Chavez) every year on the way to Downieville and playing in Roeding park. Only people who don't know (or perhaps know too well) have the temerity to bash a place like Fresno. It is a real city in the very center of rural, agricultural California.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

  20. #20
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: So Why is Indy a Small Showing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresnoid View Post
    One factor that probably reduced out of town attendance for the Clovis meet is airfare into Fresno is usually way more expensive than most destinations
    Cheap, direct flights to and from Seattle made this one a no-brainer for me, but I could see how those coming from the east would have to think about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    I loved Clovis nationals, it was lightly attended but it was outdoors with nice weather and there was an insane amount of space for warmups.
    Probably my favorite out of any Nationals I've attended. Great facility, I swam great and I made a vacation out of it by also visiting King's Canyon and Yosemite during the trip.

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