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Thread: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

  1. #81
    Here to keep it real JimRude's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    This was kind of a botched race for me. That's what happens when you rarely swim something. I dove in and streamlined for what seemed like forever, almost forgetting to take a dolphin kick. Brain fart. When I did, it was just a quick one. So, yeah, definitely, lost the race on the start. Though I managed to short stroke both walls as well. Completely different race than the technically perfect one I had at NE SCM Champs when I somehow set the record. Win some, lose some. I didn't fret over it, and Kim is very very fast.

    I widened my pull because Teen Fort told me I was spinning when I swam the 50 evil at the Sprint Classic last fall. I've also heard widening the pull was how Eric Shanteau improved his breaststroke times. My kick looked pretty wide to me in the video. I think I need some coaching help to fix my breaststroke, somewhat hard when I train solo. And honestly, I think I'd rather work more on free, which I started doing more of this year with my shoulder better. But I will continue to fake the evil. Hey, I even did the 100 this year!
    FWIW. I have always had a narrow kick. I try to imagine a tennis ball between my knees, so that the propulsion is back, rather than out/wide. I also do a lot of eggbeater kicking to work on foot speed. I have been trying to narrow my pull, based on feedback from Dr. G in Indy in 2009, figuring that the time it takes to sweep in/forward from a wider pull slows down my tempo. I want to get back into a streamlined position (ears between arms as the kick drives you forward - Ande's "ride the glide") as quickly as possible. YMMV.
    This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man - ha ha!

  2. #82
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I also have a ghastly wide kick, but I'm not sure I'm really willing to spend time working on it. I only do breast dolphin in practice. :-)
    I think you need to focus on throwing your hips forward. My coach said the one who wins is the one who gets their hips moving forward the fastest.

    My time drops came after working on this. The punch will get your torso up and out at the right angle, and give you forward motion. I am not sure I connected with it at nats...but I'm not fully on yet.

    IMHO the arms are not as important. I just anchor them, throw my hips into them (not pull back) get the recovery gone and kick back hard.

    Not saying Teen fort is wrong, just that you should think about throwing your hips up vs pulling--anchor wider, perhaps, I'm going to tinker there myself.

    PLUS, if you throw those hips up n forward your heels hit your butt and then you just roll your ankles out and kick n squeeze. No Whip.

    As a natural short axis type, I believe you are pre-geared for this. You just have to find it.
    I know you're great on BK but I think that's the anomaly from your loosey-goosey shoulders, not BR.



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  3. #83
    Very Active Member TRYM_Swimmer's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Bah! Almost didn't sign up for the evil sprint. But while you're commenting, can you suggest ways to increase my turnover? I switched to a wider pull and now my turnover is too slow. I also have a ghastly wide kick, but I'm not sure I'm really willing to spend time working on it. I only do breast dolphin in practice. :-)
    Not much I can add to the already good advice you've been given. I can just say that my favorite kicking drill is on the back, concentrating on keeping the knees together.

    How did the forumite gathering go? I hope we can have one in MD next summer. I tentatively plan to go, even though I'll be at the very top of my age group.

  4. #84
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by TRYM_Swimmer View Post
    How did the forumite gathering go? I hope we can have one in MD next summer. I tentatively plan to go, even though I'll be at the very top of my age group.
    The forumite gathering was GREAT, and we owe a big round of applause to Bobinator for organizing it. The restaurant was very nice and we were seated at one long table in the very back. We had a good group. What was really funny was when we were introducing ourselves to each other, at least three people all said, "I'm a lurker." Apparently there are a lot of people who read all of our posts but don't ever post themselves.

    Non-lurking attendees included me, matysekj, ekw, SwimStud, Jimbosback, jamesaadams1, The Fortress, Bobinator, and probably a couple more that I've forgotten.

  5. #85
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by SwimStud View Post
    I think you need to focus on throwing your hips forward. My coach said the one who wins is the one who gets their hips moving forward the fastest.
    I've heard this advice several times and I must admit I don't get it. Perhaps that's why I suck at breaststroke!

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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    I've heard this advice several times and I must admit I don't get it. Perhaps that's why I suck at breaststroke!
    Glad I'm not the only one (and I appear to be in excellent company, though the reverse can't be said for knelson). Can someone explain what the concept is, how to develop it, and what it should feel like?

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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by smontanaro View Post
    Glad I'm not the only one (and I appear to be in excellent company, though the reverse can't be said for knelson). Can someone explain what the concept is, how to develop it, and what it should feel like?
    I will try to get a video made of me doing it...or at least my attempt. Here is a drill to help get the feel.

    1) Push off wall in Superman streamline position (neutral head, arms shoulder width apart).

    2) Force the hips forward so your torso raises, and the navel moves from facing the bottom to an end point facing the wall. Try not use your arms to pull, just let the hand naturally stay where they are as your body moves.

    3) Do 3 thrusts like this then swim BR to the wall. Try to keep that core moving the same way.

    Now if you get on with that when you swim think about anchoring the arms at the wide (subjective) part of the pull and bring your hips to the arms with the thrust outlined in drill above (think about holding the water like you would do in FR when you rotate and bring the recovery arm over).

    Hope it helps. I'm not saying this is the WHY of some breakthroughs but I think it was a definite part of it. I guess it's like any other stroke, the core is doing the labour, the limbs are the gearing for want of a better analogy.



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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Kirk, you should have asked after my event...I had nothing else to do.



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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayhawk View Post
    The forumite gathering was GREAT, and we owe a big round of applause to Bobinator for organizing it. The restaurant was very nice and we were seated at one long table in the very back. We had a good group. What was really funny was when we were introducing ourselves to each other, at least three people all said, "I'm a lurker." Apparently there are a lot of people who read all of our posts but don't ever post themselves.

    Non-lurking attendees included me, matysekj, ekw, SwimStud, Jimbosback, jamesaadams1, The Fortress, Bobinator, and probably a couple more that I've forgotten.
    I enjoyed try to inspire a new or re-birthing of an old favourite thread to keep Jim busy--I'm not sure anyone will do it...and I'm way to sensible to do that nowadays



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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    to narrow the breaststroke kick, I kick with a pullbuoy. Put it right above the knees. It's overemphasizing it. But if you take it out after a 100 breaststroke your kick should be nice and narrow.
    Regarding "throwing" the hips forward, think "push down". That helps me a lot. A good drill for active hip movement that helps me a lot is swimming breaststroke kick with alternating fly and breast arms. That drill combined with breast pull with flutter kick also improves bringing your arms faster forward into streamline position.
    Those are my 2 favorite breaststroke drills (other than floating on my back pretending to be working on my breaststroke kick....)

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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    This meet was a good learning experience for me. I learned how not to taper, lol.

    Missed taper was apparent at about the 75yd mark of my 200 free when my legs went numb and I split +8sec on the 2nd 100. OUCH.
    That one hurt mentally and physically.

    I'm the reverse lurker. I'll flap my jaw on here, and then just kinda hang in the shadows in person.

  12. #92
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by SwimStud View Post
    Kirk, you should have asked after my event...I had nothing else to do.
    Your description helps. I'll try it next time I'm in the water.

  13. #93
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    So this thread is becoming the Breaststroke Lane.If you have a good fly or good undulation/core strength then the hip thrust can be very helpful.I think getting your navel facing forward is a bit far,you really don't want to have a lot of up and down movement,just enough to get your torso high enough to breath without raising your head.I fell like the power doesn't come from the hip thrust,but from the opposite motion as your shoot forward in the arm recovery and undulate in the other direction.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I think getting your navel facing forward is a bit far,you really don't want to have a lot of up and down movement,just enough to get your torso high enough to breath without raising your head.
    In reading Allen's post, I should have phrased my drill explanation better. Yes your torso should not be going vertical in the water when you swim but the drill is a bit of an "over exaggeration" to get that motion integrated in the stroke (a bit like over-kicking on fr) So in the drill you might get a little more vertical than needed in the actual stroke. Hope it helps. Any more questions let's direct them to the BR thread.



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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    In response to a number of the topics in the thread. First of all, I believe that I identified myself as a "Forum Stalker" as opposed to a "Lurker". I'm trying to fix that by actually posting ... at least in the comments area. As for breaststroke, I'm having to re-learn the stroke. It came naturally to me prior to 2 knee and 1 shoulder surgeries (not to mention a dislocated shoulder along the way). I've been told to both narrow my kick and stroke. I'm attaching a video from Nationals ... that's me in lane 2 and I remember telling myself to do this on the fourth lap of the 100. And, as for dying, the ultimate in "die" is where I took my 200 free out way to fast (55 something ... fastest in my age group) and then seriously wondered whether I was going to make it through the last 75 yards of the swim ... that's me, out there in front and then sinking the rest of the way in the 200.

  16. #96
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by beprocton View Post
    In response to a number of the topics in the thread. First of all, I believe that I identified myself as a "Forum Stalker" as opposed to a "Lurker". I'm trying to fix that by actually posting ... at least in the comments area. As for breaststroke, I'm having to re-learn the stroke. It came naturally to me prior to 2 knee and 1 shoulder surgeries (not to mention a dislocated shoulder along the way). I've been told to both narrow my kick and stroke. I'm attaching a video from Nationals ... that's me in lane 2 and I remember telling myself to do this on the fourth lap of the 100. And, as for dying, the ultimate in "die" is where I took my 200 free out way to fast (55 something ... fastest in my age group) and then seriously wondered whether I was going to make it through the last 75 yards of the swim ... that's me, out there in front and then sinking the rest of the way in the 200.
    Good swim.Except for the last length it looked like you swam better each length after the first couple of strokes.I like your timing,at least until the last length where you started to overlap your kick and pull a little.From that angle I couldn't see how wide your kick and pull were.You keep your head too high and as a result you swim "up hill"a little and you have a straight arm on the turn instead of recovering the trailing arm close to your head,but all in all a really good swim.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    So this thread is becoming the Breaststroke Lane.
    The most horrifying threadjacking ever.

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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by Fresnoid View Post
    The most horrifying threadjacking ever.
    It gets worse. I had a dream that I had signed up for 50 breast. I can only blame the deviation in this thread for that unfathomable thought.

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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Thanks for the feedback Alan. I've got a long way to go and any advice is appreciated. It seemed so easy when I was younger!

  20. #100
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: 2013 USMS Nationals SCY & LCM

    Quote Originally Posted by beprocton View Post
    Thanks for the feedback Alan. I've got a long way to go and any advice is appreciated. It seemed so easy when I was younger!
    It was easier when we were younger.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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