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Thread: Swimming against your competion

  1. #41
    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by amswimmer View Post
    I guess it brings me back to the point that the fastest person in an age group could end up swimming in lane 8 being swallowed up by swimmers 20 years younger.
    I believe at nationals they seed according to USMS 102.10.1.C “”It is recommended that when swimmers are seeded by time and not by age groups, the fastest two swimmers in each age group should not be seeded into outside lanes. It is recommended that they be moved inward one lane or given the center lanes in the next slowest heat, whichever is the more appropriate placement.”

    And if seeded by time, it is just as likely that the elder swimmer will be the swallower as the swallowee.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine and not those of U.S. Masters Swimming.

  2. #42
    Very Active Member pwb's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by amswimmer View Post
    I guess it brings me back to the point that the fastest person in an age group could end up swimming in lane 8 being swallowed up by swimmers 20 years younger.
    Or, kicking the butts of some of the swimmers 20 years younger and feeling quite happy with the result. An 'outside smoke' is a thing of beauty and likely even more beautiful when you take down much younger swimmers.

    On the topic of lane 8 and lane 1, at least for Nationals, the pools we swim in are often of such quality that there's little to no disadvantage to these lanes. If you can get ahead of the swimmers in lane 2 or 7, you actually have 'cleaner' water. I think these lanes unnecessarily get a bad rap.
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  3. #43
    Very Active Member thewookiee's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by secondheart View Post
    Maybe only 10 lane pools should be considered for future LCM nationals?
    How many pools have 10 lanes for long course? Georgia Tech(which most people complained about for scy nationals) and the hall of fame pool have 10 long course lanes.

    Requiring 10 lanes for lcm nationals isn't a realistic option every year, unless usms wants to hold it at a limited number of venues.

  4. #44
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    In 2005 I was at the Worlds Masters Games.It was seeded by time.A friend of mine,Dave Radcliff,swam several world records swimming against much younger swimmers,but as far as the announcer was concerned he was just some gut in lane 7(as an example.)
    When I go to Nats I want to swim against Bob Strand,Jim Clemmons,Robert Wright,Hubie Kerns,Richard Walker,etc.I don't want to swim against some 30 year old guy who happens to have a seed time close to me.If I have one of the fastest times in my age group I want a center lane.I admit in my age group there is the "Rick Colella problem",that he is so much faster than everyone else it may not be a race for him and he might like to swim with faster swimmers.I don't know,I haven't asked him.I just know for me,I'd rather swim by age groups at Nats.I can go to plenty of meets seeded by time,Nats is special.
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    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    In 2005 I was at the Worlds Masters Games.It was seeded by time.A friend of mine,Dave Radcliff,swam several world records swimming against much younger swimmers,but as far as the announcer was concerned he was just some gut in lane 7(as an example.)
    So do you think Dave swam slower because the announcer didnít recognize his accomplishment? Maybe he went faster because the young guy in lane 6 was pushing him.

    I get that some folks prefer to swim in heats with people of their gender and age group while others prefer to be swimming in a heat with people of comparable times. I also get that some folks are pretty well entrenched in their preferences.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine and not those of U.S. Masters Swimming.

  6. #46
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Copeland View Post
    So do you think Dave swam slower because the announcer didnít recognize his accomplishment?
    I think Allen was merely saying that the accomplishment went unnoticed.

    Like Allen, I have plenty of fast people in my own age group to race. It's more meaningful to be racing them head to head than some 20+ year old at nationals.

    And I'm not buying Patrick's assertion that lanes 1 and 8 are underrated. Maybe they're not a huge negative at nationals in pools comparable to Omaha in terms of waves, but you still can't see the other swimmers well. I'm never happy to be in wall lanes (especially if it's in a mixed gender meet). And I literally just saw a swimmer complaining on FB that she and her age group competition were in lanes 1 and 8 for a distance event.

  7. #47
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    I think Allen was merely saying that the accomplishment went unnoticed..
    Yes.This announcer was very excited,but he would talk about the great swim by the swimmer who won,even though that person may have finished much further down in the age group.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Copeland View Post
    I believe at nationals they seed according to USMS 102.10.1.C “”It is recommended that when swimmers are seeded by time and not by age groups, the fastest two swimmers in each age group should not be seeded into outside lanes. It is recommended that they be moved inward one lane or given the center lanes in the next slowest heat, whichever is the more appropriate placement.”

    And if seeded by time, it is just as likely that the elder swimmer will be the swallower as the swallowee.
    This never happens outside nationals. And I'm not sure it happens at nationals either. I'd have to check the heat sheets.

    Not just as likely. Sure, there are stud swimmers in the older age groups. But on the whole, the talented older swimmers will not beat talented younger swimmers and, if seeded by time, they will end up in the outside lanes.

    Where is Jeff Commings? Isn't he going to come along to defend the seeding by time camp?

  9. #49

    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    In 2005 I was at the Worlds Masters Games.It was seeded by time.A friend of mine,Dave Radcliff,swam several world records swimming against much younger swimmers,but as far as the announcer was concerned he was just some gut in lane 7(as an example.)
    When I go to Nats I want to swim against Bob Strand,Jim Clemmons,Robert Wright,Hubie Kerns,Richard Walker,etc.I don't want to swim against some 30 year old guy who happens to have a seed time close to me.If I have one of the fastest times in my age group I want a center lane.I admit in my age group there is the "Rick Colella problem",that he is so much faster than everyone else it may not be a race for him and he might like to swim with faster swimmers.I don't know,I haven't asked him.I just know for me,I'd rather swim by age groups at Nats.I can go to plenty of meets seeded by time,Nats is special.
    oddly enough rick's 200 swim in Omaha was one of the observations I was referring to when I said timed heats tend to diminish the accomplishment of a world record swim. I don't think he won his heat yet against the 60-64 group he would have won by about 15 seconds.

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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    I too would prefer to swim against others in my own age group. I'm still "young" in the 25-29 age group but now that they have seeded everyone together in 200s+ regardless of age, I think I'm going to get stuck in lanes 1 or 2. If I had been seeded with my age group I'd be in one of the center lanes and be able to see my competition. Granted I may swim faster tomorrow having some of the younger stud swimmers in my heat, but Id still prefer to race against my own age group. This is the only meet that this gets to happen at and it's a shame that it won't happen for everyone at this National meet.

    I personally even enjoy watching the heats before me and seeing those standout performances by those swimmers who kill the competition in their age group. For me it's really inspiring and one of the reasons why I love Nationals. Those swimmers' accomplishments will definitely go under the radar and it's unfortunate.

  11. #51
    Very Active Member pwb's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by priscillamodrov View Post
    I personally even enjoy watching the heats before me and seeing those standout performances by those swimmers who kill the competition in their age group. For me it's really inspiring and one of the reasons why I love Nationals. Those swimmers' accomplishments will definitely go under the radar and it's unfortunate.
    despite my previous comments as a racer in the pool, as a swim fan, I agree with this.

    At the end of the day, I can go both ways on this issue and find the joy racing under either environment.

    Moreover, I am SO grateful for all the volunteers who go to great lengths to put on Nationals and the people on the organizing committee who have to make these tough calls.

    as for tomorrow, I am happy not to be seeded by age group so I won't have to cry in my goggles as I watch Kurt speed away from me in the 200!
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  12. #52
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    I posted a poll about this in the swimming section http://forums.usms.org/showthread.ph...your-age-group
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  13. #53
    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    I admit in my age group there is the "Rick Colella problem",that he is so much faster than everyone else
    Event 5 Men 60-64 200 LC Meter IM
    ================================================== ================
    WORLD: W 2:30.05 6/13/2012 TIMOTHY SHEAD, USA
    NATL: N 2:30.05 6/13/2012 TIMOTHY SHEAD
    Name Age Club Seed Finals
    ================================================== ================

    1 Colella, Rick 62 PSM 2:30.00 2:23.10W Great swim
    30.68 1:10.66 (39.98) 1:50.80 (40.14) 2:23.10 (32.30)
    2 Kerns, Hubie 64 VCM 2:43.81 2:45.47
    35.04 1:18.30 (43.26) 2:06.01 (47.71) 2:45.47 (39.46)
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine and not those of U.S. Masters Swimming.

  14. #54
    Very Active Member aquajock's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    This seeding by time for the 200s is making me want to not swim them anymore at nationals. I want to know how I'm stacking up with my age group during and immediately after the race and not have to scramble for my iPhone to figure out if I placed well or won later...

  15. #55
    Very Active Member aquajock's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    And today the announcer usually only mentioned the heat winners, which left older swimmers who did well in their heats unrecognized.

  16. #56
    Very Active Member jroddin's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Quote Originally Posted by amswimmer View Post
    20 minutes an event! That's it? For that we can't swim against our own age group? I'm so happy that on Saturday we get to go home at 4:50 instead of 5:05.
    We felt we should seed the 200s all the same way (all by age group or all by time). For instance, we didn't want to seed the 200 breast by age group while the 200 back was seeded by time (or vice versa). Likewise we didn't want to preseed one 200 event while doing positive check-in for another 200 event. One could argue we are already not doing the same thing across the board (50s, 100s, 200s, 400s, 800s, 1500s) so why not seed each event uniquely on each day as needed. Right or wrong, we decided to be consistent with the seeding at least for the race distance. Anyway, it is true the time savings may not have been great for some of the 200s but with the order of events we needed to do it for other 200s, so the hammer came down on all of them. Finally, we had the largest Summer Nationals in USMS history plus we had an 8 lane pool, so if there was ever a time to do this (seed 200s by time) to save time this was the meet.

    Aside: a bad situation is no shows for a positive check-in event (USA-S penalizes swimmers by not letting them swim their next event if this happens). I think there were 12 No Shows in the 1500 last week. That would have saved close to 30 minutes off the ~10pm finish time had those swimmers not checked-in. There were a ton of empty lanes for a deck seeded 500 free on Sunday at a particular Nationals, so we got to wondering if this was an issue with swimmers being out of gas by Sunday morning (while it seemed like a good idea to them on Tuesday or Wednesday when they checked-in). Turns out the No-Show rate for the 500 free is high for men regardless of day; and low for women regardless of day. One can draw their own conclusions there!

    Quote Originally Posted by fastback View Post
    If that's is all the time it saves this certainly won't be a solution to shortening the meets if the national meets continue to grow. It's too late for Mission Viejo but a subject the championship committee should revisit with the comments in this thread taken into consideration.
    Well said, and I agree. I also think the "sixth event" rule is unfair and a better solution exists. We don't know until 35 days before the meet starts how many swimmers are entered (even less days if the popular request to extend the entry deadline was granted). The Order of Events (4 day vs 5 day formats) needs to be published before the entry form is available, so it's not an option to change that platform. Then all you have left are seeding configurations to manipulate to produce manageable days.

    Quote Originally Posted by thewookiee View Post
    How many pools have 10 lanes for long course? Georgia Tech(which most people complained about for scy nationals) and the hall of fame pool have 10 long course lanes.

    Requiring 10 lanes for lcm nationals isn't a realistic option every year, unless usms wants to hold it at a limited number of venues.
    FWIW there were 2 bidders for 2013 Summer Nationals and both had 8 lane pools. We were fortunate in Puerto Rico (2010) and Omaha (2012) to have 10 lane pools, but those were indeed rarities for LCM Nationals. But you are right that a 10 lane pool for LCM Nationals is extremely helpful (e.g. we didn't have to cut the sixth event in Omaha, even with ~1250 swimmers). Note that SPIRE (2015 LC) has a 10 lane pool.

    Quote Originally Posted by aquajock View Post
    And today the announcer usually only mentioned the heat winners, which left older swimmers who did well in their heats unrecognized.
    I was not at the meet but this is not really a seeding issue, it's an announcer issue. I'm quite sure an announcer like Mark Gill would be able to call out standout swims regardless of placing in a given heat. But again, I was not at the meet so I am just speculating.

    Jeff

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    Re: Swimming against your competion -

    It's difficult to swim against your competition when your competition sandbags their times! There was so much of that going on at this Summer Nationals - sandbagging also messes up the length of the meet.

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    Re: Swimming against your competion

    Allen...I am that "some 30 year old guy".

    Quite frankly, swimming masters for anyone under 30 is an odd (and sometimes awkward) experience. We are too old to do USA swimming...and too young to feel fully included in masters.

    Next to the 80 year old plus group, under 30 (and even more so under 25) are small groups with wide arrays of swimming skills.

    It's nice to come to a meet, get smoked by a guy as old as my Dad, and be able to shake hands and say good race.

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    Re: Swimming against your competion -

    Quote Originally Posted by drip'nwet View Post
    It's difficult to swim against your competition when your competition sandbags their times! There was so much of that going on at this Summer Nationals - sandbagging also messes up the length of the meet.
    Isn't that the truth? It's out of control...

  20. #60
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Swimming against your competion -

    A heat winner may
    not be the National champ in an age group, as I was in Az a few years ago. I was sooo happy to hear my name as champ!!

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