Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 68

Thread: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

  1. #1
    Participating Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Posts
    11

    Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Is USRPT better than CSS for training distances like 800m and 1500m.
    http://swimsmooth.com/training_adv.html this is a link to CSS training.

  2. #2
    Very Active Member Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    922

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by TSB. View Post
    Is USRPT better than CSS for training distances like 800m and 1500m.
    http://swimsmooth.com/training_adv.html this is a link to CSS training.

    I am not sure what CSS training is, but I do know that USRPT is good for distances as well. Despite the fact that the training method is call Ultra Short Race Pace Training and despite the fact that most people assume that it is really for sprinters only, I believe that it is actually better for distance swimmers than for sprinters.

    All you really have to do is determine your goal time for the 800 and or 1500. Then break that time down into 100s and that is the pace you need to maintain. I train for the 400/500 and do mostly 50 repeats. For 800/1500 you can do 100 repeats with 20 seconds rest, skip if misssed.
    Glenn Gruber

  3. #3
    Very Active Member pwb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,709
    Blog Entries
    1986

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    You can brand it however you like, but the key is race pace training. The longer the distance, though, the shorter the rest interval, I think. That is, 15 x 100 on 2:00 holding 1:00 is going to do less to train you for a 15:00 1500 than 15 x 100 on 1:10 holding 1:00.

    If you really want to train for the 800 or 1500, figure out what the Michigan pro team is doing.

    Caveat - I grew up in the old school, 1970's/80's animal lane mentality for distance swimming. YMMV.

  4. #4
    Very Active Member Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    922

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by pwb View Post
    You can brand it however you like, but the key is race pace training. The longer the distance, though, the shorter the rest interval, I think. That is, 15 x 100 on 2:00 holding 1:00 is going to do less to train you for a 15:00 1500 than 15 x 100 on 1:10 holding 1:00.
    If you want to train for the 800/1500 here is the set you should do:

    30 x 100 holding x:xx on an interval that gives you 20 seconds rest, skip if missed. Where x is the pace you want to hold. In USRPT you should never be able to do the entire set of 30 x 100. If you can do them all, the pace is too easy. When you miss an interval you rest until the next one comes around. Once you have missed three total or two in a row with the extra rest, the set is done. Period. When doing USRPT you must always swim until failure.

    These are not easy. They are not meant to be. It will take some time to get used to it. Eventually you should do two sets a day like this. No need to do kicking, pulling or drills. They are all a waste of your time (unless you just want to get in yardage - but what is the benefit of that).

    Once I began to do the USRPT sets correctly, I saw a big difference in 3 months.
    Glenn Gruber

  5. #5
    Very Active Member flystorms's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    439
    Blog Entries
    241

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    This is great information, Glenn, thanks for sharing. I wondered how to best do the longer distances as well with USRPT. I've been doing some research on it lately. May have to give this approach a try for the longer distances.

    How much time have you dropped in those 3 months, if you don't mind? How many days/week do you do these sets? And what's a good warmup before you get cranking on these?
    - Kari
    "If your ship doesn't come in, swim out to meet it." - Jonathan Winters, actor and comedian

  6. #6
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,969
    Blog Entries
    565

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    No need to do kicking, pulling or drills. They are all a waste of your time
    The caveat, of course, is "according to USRPT philosophy."

  7. #7
    Paragon / Swimming Virtue
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,142
    Blog Entries
    448

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    From the CSS article:

    For distance swimmers - including open water athletes and triathletes - one physiological factor is all important: your lactate threshold. If you can improve your lactate threshold speed your race speeds will improve. Your ability to sprint or work anaerobically above threshold is largely irrelevant in distance swimming and triathlon. So is your ability to lift heavy weights.

    Here's the secret: To improve your lactate threshold you want to do your quality swim sets at your current threshold pace or just below it. Many athletes make the mistake of training above lactate threshold in short sharp swim sets - that isn't nearly as effective. We'll explain more about getting that right below.
    To use a technical term, this is super dumb. Lactate threshold is the swimming speed below which lactate does not accumulate. Yes, this is obviously what you need to improve for distance swimming, because lactate accumulation is unsustainable. However it's quite a leap to say that sprinting and lifting cannot change lactate threshold.

    If you think of your lactate threshold as the percentage of your top speed, then yeah, you probably want to train it near or below threshold. However, you don't want to be a high percentage of fast; you want to be fast. Why not also just increase your top swimming speed by increasing strength? Then your lactate threshold can increase without increasing its percentage of top speed.

    I'd ask any distance swimmer who doesn't think speed is important whether they can swim a 100 LCM freestyle in under 49 seconds. Because Sun Yang can, and that means he has to work a lot less hard than most people to maintain whatever his threshold pace is, regardless of how much time he spends working on it.

  8. #8
    Very Active Member Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    922

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    The caveat, of course, is "according to USRPT philosophy."

    For me regardless of USRPT philosophy, I have believed for a long time that drills, in particular were useless. Probably not for beginners, because there is value in slowing a skill down for them in order for them to be able to even do the skill. However, for accomplished swimmers, and by that I mean swimmers who compete on a regular basis, regardless of their speed, they can integrate any change in their stroke while practicing at race pace.

    Example, you want me to have a high elbow catch, just tell me. I can think about that and change my elbow position while I am doing USRPT, no problem. Head in the wrong position, no problem, tell me to look at the bottom of the pool, I can do that while doing race pace sets.

    Things like the finger drag drill make NO sense to me. Why would I drag my fingers on top of the water (creating more drag BTW) because the coach feels I am lifting my hand too high on recovery? If that's my problem, tell me and because I am aware of it, I can concntrate on it while swimming.

    As for pulling and kicking, I have raced hundreds, maybe thousands of times and I have never raced while only pulling or kicking. When those two activities become an event, then I will probably do my race pace sets that way.

    To me it is very simple, "train how you are going to race". That quote I have heard many times from Rich Abrahams. I think that has worked fairly well for him.
    Glenn Gruber

  9. #9
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    s c
    Posts
    2,379
    Blog Entries
    696

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    At what point would an USRP set be too hard requiring an additional second or two split , say for a 30 x 100?

  10. #10
    Very Active Member Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    922

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    At what point would an USRP set be too hard requiring an additional second or two split , say for a 30 x 100?
    USRPT is not like traditional training where you do a set of 10 x 100 on 1:30 and you are expected to do all 10. The number of repeats you do in a USRPT set is not really the main point. The main point is how many you can do at your race pace. And it's your race pace, not the guy next to you.

    In a set of 30 x 100, you should be able to do maybe 12 or 14 before your first failure. Then maybe you can string together another 4 or five before your next failure and finally maybe you can get in 4 or 5 more before your third failure before you stop the set. So if you have done 24 of the 30 where 21 where at race pace and three were failures, that is a good start.

    The challenge with USRPT is to try to move that first failure farther and farther down the road. So if today your first failure was at # 12, try to go one more tomorrow and have your first failure at #13 etc.

    If you are doing the set and your first failure comes at number 6 and your second failure at number 8 and your third failure at number 10, then you need to adjust your target time to be a little easier. You do not adjust your rest. It is always at 20 seconds.

    On the other hand, if you are doing a set of 30 and you do 26 before your first failure, I would say the time you chose was too soft. You need to make it more difficult.

    The point of USRPT is swimming at the speed you will swim the race.
    Glenn Gruber

  11. #11
    Very Active Member Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    922

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by flystorms View Post
    This is great information, Glenn, thanks for sharing. I wondered how to best do the longer distances as well with USRPT. I've been doing some research on it lately. May have to give this approach a try for the longer distances.

    How much time have you dropped in those 3 months, if you don't mind? How many days/week do you do these sets? And what's a good warmup before you get cranking on these?
    - Kari

    At the point I knew it was working for me at three months, I had swum a 200 free at 2:03.35 in early February. In years past I had swum the 200 free in early February in 2:07 - 2:09.

    I do these sets 5 days a week. At my age (65) I feel my body needs the two days off on Sat and Sun.

    I do a very short warmup. I do 2 x 200 and then go at it!
    Glenn Gruber

  12. #12
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    4,157
    Blog Entries
    1217

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    The caveat, of course, is "according to USRPT philosophy."
    Amen. The claim that kicking, pulling and drilling are an utter waste of time is one of the several things that I dislike about USRPT (though there are things I like).
    These opinions are mine mine mine and not USMS'.

  13. #13
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    8,102
    Blog Entries
    2092

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Amen. The claim that kicking, pulling and drilling are an utter waste of time is one of the several things that I dislike about USRPT (though there are things I like).
    Don't forget his dismissal of drylands/weights ... John Mullen wrote a critique of USRPT's treatment of this issue. There was a rather testy comment from Rushall in response. http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com...land-training/

  14. #14
    Paragon / Swimming Virtue
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,142
    Blog Entries
    448

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Don't forget his dismissal of drylands/weights ... John Mullen wrote a critique of USRPT's treatment of this issue. There was a rather testy comment from Rushall in response. http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com...land-training/
    My favorite part of the hissy fit:

    The basic investigative technique for determining another person’s thoughts is the interview. Dr. Mullen has never interviewed me.
    Can't argue with things I wrote, because you didn't interview me.

  15. #15
    Very Active Member Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    922

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    Amen. The claim that kicking, pulling and drilling are an utter waste of time is one of the several things that I dislike about USRPT (though there are things I like).

    I have not agreed with the notion that kicking, pulling and drills add anything of importance to a swim workout long before I ever heard of USRPT. That said, if you want to add some yardage by doing those activities, go ahead. I just don't think they help you swim fast. The only thing that helps you to swim fast, is to swim fast.

    How does kicking with your head out of the water, holding onto a kick board and not rotating as you do when you actually swim, have anything to do with what you do in a race? When I did kicking drillls on any of the Masters workouts I have ever been in over the last 35 years they have almost always been "social time". There is value in that, but not for swimming fast.

    Everyone jumps on Rushall for poo-pooing kicking, pulling and drills. But this is not something he made up. What he is saying is that there is NO scientific evidence that these activities help you to swim faster. He is a scientist. He deals with scientific evidence and as such does not believe that there is any evidence that these things actually help. Maybe they DO help, but there is not evidence that they do.

    As far as weight training is concerned, again, there is no scientific evidence that shows that it helps swimmers, mostly due to the idea of specificity. When weight training on land you are anchored by the floor which is different than when you swim. The swim bench looks like it simulates swimming, but it doesn't. You are lying on a bench, not suspended in water, you cannot rotate as you do in the water etc. Also Rushall does not say that weight training absolutely is no good for Masters swimmers. He only says that there is no evidence, no study, that shows that it helps, which is different than showing or not showing that it is a hindrance. I happen to think weight training for masters swimmers is useful. Not because it may or may not help with swimming, but because it offsets the effects of Sarcopenia.

    With regard to drills, I taught physical education for many years in the public schools. And except for beginners to a physical skill, I always found it possible to correct students' movement flaws within the context of the larger movement itself. In other words kids could grasp the proper movement easily by showing them how it should be done, giving them the right cue words and having them do it while peforming the entire skill, not just a piece of it.

    So, if you think kicking, pulling and drills are of benefit to you, by all means do them. You can still do USRPT. Doing drills does not negate race pace training, it just may not be the best use of your time.
    Glenn Gruber

  16. #16
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Mulino,OR
    Posts
    4,359

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    Don't forget his dismissal of drylands/weights ... John Mullen wrote a critique of USRPT's treatment of this issue. There was a rather testy comment from Rushall in response. http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com...land-training/
    I have always respected Dr Rushall,even though I did not always agree with his conclusions,but his response to this article was incredibly unprofessional.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  17. #17
    sprint diva The Fortress's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Posts
    8,102
    Blog Entries
    2092

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glenn View Post
    How does kicking with your head out of the water, holding onto a kick board and not rotating as you do when you actually swim, have anything to do with what you do in a race?
    This is the only way we kick? I think not. I believe dedicated SDK sets are absolutely valuable, especially for sprinting. Rushall has basically conceded already that USRPT has nothing to do with 50s. I find it valuable to do SDK work at both AFAP and 100 pace. The problem with a strict Rushall style sprint set, e.g., 30 x 25 @ 100 pace @ :20 rest is that it's awfully difficult to execute the # of SDKs you would take in a race for that many reps (at least for masters). Even if you go up to :30 rest per 25, I still think it's hard to replicate a race effort.

    I rather think the Rushall sets are better for training middle to long distances. And for those distances, the kick is not as important.

  18. #18
    Very Active Member Glenn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Pasadena, CA
    Posts
    922

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Fortress View Post
    This is the only way we kick?

    I rather think the Rushall sets are better for training middle to long distances. And for those distances, the kick is not as important.

    Obviously I wasn't thinking about SDK. You are right about SDK since you can do them as a part of doing any repeats in USRPT.

    And I agree that USRPT is much better suited for middle and long distance swimming, which is why it appeals to me. The interesting thing is most people I talk to assume, because it is called Ultra Short Race Pace Training, that it is mainly for, or only for, sprinters. I don't think it is for sprinters at all, but don't tell that to Michael Andrew who just won the 100 breast at the last Grand Prix meet.
    Glenn Gruber

  19. #19
    Paragon / Swimming Virtue
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    1,142
    Blog Entries
    448

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    He is a scientist.
    Uh-huh.

    As far as weight training is concerned, again, there is no scientific evidence that shows that it helps swimmers, mostly due to the idea of specificity.
    Except that, you know, there is: http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab...ed_and.54.aspx

    Here's the part that will totally blow your mind, though: the effect illustrated in the study existed before the study was even published. It's almost as though things can be true without direct scientific evidence for them, and we might have to use other scientific principles to construct a hypothesis, and then act according to the hypothesis alongside anecdotal evidence, instead of waiting for someone to get the funding to study a single training variable in a 12-week randomized experiment. WHOOOOAAAAAHHH.
    Last edited by Jazz Hands; February 4th, 2015 at 02:15 AM.

  20. #20
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Posts
    90

    Re: Longer distances: USRPT or CSS?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz Hands View Post
    Uh-huh.



    Except that, you know, there is: http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Ab...ed_and.54.aspx
    I don't like studys like that, I dont't even like studys in any kind of sports at all.
    It always seems to forget one aspect of human being: the mental, psychological aspect.
    I often think the group of people are described like robots with some specific physiological characteristics but without any kind of spirit.
    The question is not if dry-land training is helpful or not (I personally think it is) the question is: what can you do out of the water to bring your body, spirt, mind and soul in the right interaction and cooperation to reach your full potential at the date X of your peak preformance.

Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. USRPT
    By sbricken in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: August 28th, 2014, 07:31 PM
  2. Need to train effectively without huge distances
    By bowyer954 in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 34
    Last Post: January 16th, 2012, 07:48 PM
  3. Men are faster in short distances
    By okoban in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: February 24th, 2008, 09:51 PM
  4. calculating open water swim distances
    By auto208562 in forum Open Water Swimming
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: May 15th, 2005, 07:09 PM
  5. Race distances
    By centaur532 in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: December 9th, 2004, 08:21 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •