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Thread: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

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    Very Active Member smontanaro's Avatar
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    Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    Without seeking approval (I will ask forgiveness later), here's a note from Jim Matysek via Paige Buehler regarding resources to help TTR folk maintain LMSC records. This will at least make the links available for others who might come later and not have the email.

    At the Records and Tabulations meeting at convention this year, a request was made for resources to assist LMSC volunteers who maintain their LMSC records. The request was to provide one listing of the fastest times for each event/age group ever recorded in our national top 10 listings, so the LMSC records recorder can easily grab these swims for their LMSC records tabulations. We now have two new resources that will assist you in finding the fastest times recorded by members of your LMSC.

    The first is a listing of the fastest times ever recorded for your LMSC in our annual Top 10 listings. This can be found at http://www.usms.org/comp/tt/lmsc_fastest_top10.php.

    A second resource listing the fastest times ever recorded for your LMSC in our event results database can be found at http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/lmsc_fastest_times.php. Note that this listing can be a bit different than the first listing referenced above. For instance, a swimmer may have the fastest time ever recorded in your LMSC for a particular age group/event, but that time did not make the national top 10 list. In that case, the time would be included in this second listing, but not the first listing.

    I hope these resources help in your jobs of maintaining LMSC records. If you have any questions, feel free to contact me.
    I have been hip deep in this process for Illinois for quite some time. Our SCY top ten list includes swims dating back to (I think) 1979. Many swims have no meet name associated with them, and only a year for a date. Consequently, I have been doing a lot of data cleaning as I work to get this into a database. Crucial to this data cleaning exercise have been saved MM results by Joe Magiera (my predecessor) dating back to 1995/1996, and contacts with long-time masters swimmers who have kept their own records (either out of habit or because they once were in roles similar to us). I have so far only considered SCY swims. I suspect the problem will be easier for SCM and LCM, simply because there are far fewer swims to consider, and they don't go back as far.

    If you'd like to talk more technical turkey, let me know. Otherwise I won't bore people with things like database schemas and such.

    Cheers...

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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    This is very helpful, but I know that the Ozark LMSC has some older records that are faster than these. http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/lmsc_fastest_times.php
    Of course it may be that times were not always submitted to USMS. Do we know how far back this "Fastest Times Ever" go?
    Mary Pohlmann

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    Very Active Member smontanaro's Avatar
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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    I'm sure it's different for different LMSCs. In Illinois, I don't think meets started getting submitted regularly until the mid oughts. I have a bunch of old MM files. I've uploaded a couple, but it's quite tedious to work through problems given that some of the people have passed away, stopped swimming USMS or changed names. I have mostly been using the CL2 files from that collection to point me in the right direction as I clean up our top ten list.

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    Quote Originally Posted by MPohlmann View Post
    This is very helpful, but I know that the Ozark LMSC has some older records that are faster than these. http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/lmsc_fastest_times.php
    Of course it may be that times were not always submitted to USMS. Do we know how far back this "Fastest Times Ever" go?
    The two links provided pull from two databases: the results database and the Top 10 database. For Ozark it appears that you started submitting meets to the results database in 2006 (at least, that's the oldest meet).

    http://www.usms.org/comp/meets/meetl...ID=0&LMSCID=22

    Of course the Top 10 "fastest times" link goes back much further since the database it pulls from goes all the way to 1971. I see Ozark TT individual listings beginning in 1972.

    http://www.usms.org/comp/tt/toptenlm....php?LMSCID=22

    The advantage of the two links Jim provided is you get it all in two lists (one for each DB) and don't have to click on the individual years.

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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    Quote Originally Posted by MPohlmann View Post
    Of course it may be that times were not always submitted to USMS. Do we know how far back this "Fastest Times Ever" go?
    It's not the "Fastest Time Ever" but "... ever recorded in our Event Results Database". To see what's in the database you'd have to go to the list of meets and check out what's there. Some older meets are still getting added, such as Skip mentioning he's putting in old ones. I've added some old ones too.

    Times exist for all the old individual swims in top ten, so checking those out may help. Old top ten relays are slowly getting added too.

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    Participating Member Phillip Luebke's Avatar
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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    These resources are great, but a recent experience makes me wonder about the accuracy of the data.

    In comparing our state records to the information in these databases, I found a few swims in the databases that were faster than our supposed state records. I did not want to blindly correct these apparent past oversights, so I reached out to the swimmers involved (when possible), so see if they could provide any additional information.

    Most of these swims were really old, and as you might expect, no one (so far) has been able to supply any documentation to support or refute these times, but I did have one swimmer inform me that, despite the database saying that he was a member of Montana Masters when he swam his sub-2:00 200 fly time in 1982, he was actually living in Cincinnati, so that time would not count for a Montana Masters record.

    Does anyone have any more information on the source(s) of the data in these databases? If one field (club membership) is suspect, I wonder if we can rely on any of the other fields to be more accurate. Anyone have any tips on how to validate any of these really old swims?

    Thanks for your help!

    Phillip Luebke
    Bozeman, MT
    Phillip Luebke
    Top Ten & Records Chair
    Montana LMSC

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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    I've been reviewing our Ozark LMSC records using the resources provided by Jim Matysek. The field with which I had the most problems is the affiliation field in the Best Top Ten ever file. That's because the USMS Top Ten did not list club affiliation. Here's the response that I got from Jim about that issue:

    The top 10 list we get from the R&T [Records and Tabulations] committee does not contain club or LMSC affiliations for any of the top 10 swimmers (they have never tracked that). However, we figured that this is rather important info for online displays, so we have a tool to try to identify these affiliations for swimmers in the top 10. Since we don't have the true history of everyone's registration year-by-year back to 1972 in our online database, the tool can only go by what the "latest" club and LMSC info we have for each swimmer is.... That's the best it can do with the info available. When dealing with a ton of offline data going back many years without all the supporting data available, there's going to be some issues like this.

    I've been asking Anna Lea Matysek to check on some registrations. Just because someone lives in Connecticut, doesn't mean that they weren't a member of Montana Masters at the time of the swim. Likewise, just because someone lives in St Louis doesn't mean they should hold the Ozark record if they were representing Nebraska at the time of the swim.

    Nonetheless, I have found a few records of which I was not aware - Ozark registered swimmers at a meet in Missouri Valley or California, for example.

    For the most part, I think we can trust the times. However, the Top Ten resource did come up with an Ozark swimmer who swam the 1650 in :00.00 - That's a hard to beat record, but apparently that's what was recorded in the Top Ten listing in 1975 as a data input mistake and it wasn't caught as an error. I also found one time that the meet results showed that should have been a disqualification. So someone on our LMSC side made a mistake in submitting that as a legitimate time. I am not counting it as a record because I have the additional information concerning the disqualification (I was actually at the meet in question, which also helps).

    The Best Times from the USMS Database of times (started about 10 years ago) should be pretty accurate since most affiliations and times came from meet results submitted by Top Ten recorders from Meet Manager close to the time of the swim.

    My rule of thumb is what was the swimmer's affiliation at the time of the swim, not where were they living. Unattached is also problematic, since we often don't know in what LMSC they were unattached. I like the new UC code (UC-22 is Ozark). We do count unattached in our Ozark records if their registration is in Ozark.
    Mary Pohlmann

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    Participating Member Phillip Luebke's Avatar
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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    Thanks, Mary. So are you saying that Anna Lea Matysek has paper records, and can look up -- definitively -- what club a swimmer was registered with at the time...even dating back to the 1980s?
    Phillip Luebke
    Top Ten & Records Chair
    Montana LMSC

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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Luebke View Post
    Thanks, Mary. So are you saying that Anna Lea Matysek has paper records, and can look up -- definitively -- what club a swimmer was registered with at the time...even dating back to the 1980s?
    Phillip, another source of information you can use is to use the the USMS National Championship results that are linked on this website here:

    http://www.usms.org/comp/nationals.p...ts_and_results

    The results go back to 1971 and if you know the Club codes you can figure the Club and LMSC out. I have found many swimmers this way going back to the AAU days which were before 1980. I know that a lot of swimmers didn't attend Nationals that may have a record but its worth a try before contacting Anna Lea and having her search though a lot of paper records.

    I did a list of continuous years of registration membership in the Michigan LMSC and we give a Continuous Loyalty Award out for our members in 5 year increments up to 30 years and the National Results helped us identify swimmers that swam in the AAU before 1980 and from what I understand their are not any AAU masters registration lists from 1971 to 1980 that USMS has at the moment. So you might be able to find some swimmers with records in those results.
    Skip Thompson

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    Very Active Member ALM's Avatar
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    Re: Fwd: New resources for those who maintain LMSC records

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Luebke View Post
    Thanks, Mary. So are you saying that Anna Lea Matysek has paper records, and can look up -- definitively -- what club a swimmer was registered with at the time...even dating back to the 1980s?
    I have access to registration data as far back as 1986 for all members, and farther back for selected members. So if you have a question about a particular member, just send me an email.

    Anna Lea

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