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Thread: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

  1. #1
    Very Active Member emmett's Avatar
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    Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    Does your LMSC:

    1. allow an individual swimmer (or his/her coach) to submit a USMS sanction request (and have it be granted) for a USA-S meet? (This might happen when a USMS swimmer expects to set a FINA Masters record at a USA-S meet and wants to make sure that results from the meet will be accepted by FINA.)

    2. or require that the meet host/director/organization initiate the request?

    I'm aware of both situations and wonder which is more prevalent.
    Coach Emmett Hines - ASCA Level 5
    Gulf LMSC Top10 Chair
    http://H2OustonSwims.org
    emmett@usms.org

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    Re: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    We have not experienced Situation 1, only Situation 2. I'd be concerned in Situation 1 about whether the meet host is aware of the requirements for record documentation needed for a FINA record and for USMS database results acceptance, including pool measurements etc, particularly if a bulkhead pool.
    Mary Pohlmann

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    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
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    Re: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    It seems to me that a sanction is an agreement between an event host and the LMSC to run the event according to USMS rules. I don't see how an individual swimmer should be allowed to make that agreement on behalf of the host, possibly without their knowledge or consent.
    Last edited by Chris Stevenson; May 15th, 2015 at 12:44 PM.

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    Re: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Stevenson View Post
    It seems to me that a sanction is an agreement between an event host and the LMSC to run the event according to USMS rules. I don't see how an individual swimmer should be allowed to make that agreement on behalf of the host, possibly without their knowledge or consent.
    My LMSC doesn't have dual sanctioned events.

    I actually don't see that many meets at all that are dual sanctioned. They tend to come from only a handful of LMSCs. I don't know whether they are at the request of swimmers or the LMSC. If you really want to know you'd have to contact those LMSCs that have the dual sanctions and ask them.

    I think Chris is correct that they are SUPPOSED to only be requested by the meet organizers and LMSC, vs being requested by a swimmer. If a swimmer requests it, it should still go through the LMSC and meet organizers.

  5. #5
    Participating Member Phillip Luebke's Avatar
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    Re: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    Most opportunities to compete in Montana are USA Swimming meets that have been dual sanctioned. Based on the approved sanctions that I've seen in my short time as the top ten recorder, it appears that someone associated with the meet host usually requests this. However, earlier this month our local USAS team wanted our masters club's new coach to request it. As the president of the club, I advised her not to because she was not involved in hosting the meet in any way, so there was no way that she could attest to everything you need to attest to when you submit a request. In the end, the sanction didn't come through in time, and the meet ended up not being USMS-sanctioned, despite the fact that the meet entry packet said that it was. I still think it was the right decision. If the USAS clubs are going to dual sanction their meets, they need to fully understand and abide by all relevant USMS rules and regs. Going through the sanction request process themselves is one small step to help educate them.
    Phillip Luebke
    Top Ten & Records Chair
    Montana LMSC

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    Re: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    We have held several dual-sanctioned meets here in the Ozark LMSC since my earlier post to this question. In each case there were co-directors (one for the USMS portion and one for the USA-S portion), but it was the USA-S coach who extended the invitation. The USMS director applied for the USMS sanction after receiving the entry information from the USA-S director and adding a Masters entry form with the required waiver page. There was a good mutual understanding of the requirements for each portion of the meet. These were generally small USA-S intrasquad meets where sandwiching Masters events in between provided rest for the age-group swimmers. The Masters benefitted most by not having to worry about officials staffing, pool rental, etc. Nearly all our USA-S officials have all officiated Masters meets, so there is no difficulty with their understanding rule differences. We have also had several USMS National and FINA Masters World records set at these meets and have had no trouble obtaining the necessary documentation for the records applications. Good cooperation is a must.
    Mary Pohlmann

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    Very Active Member jseidler's Avatar
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    Re: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    In response to Phillip, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I do not know of any rule in the Rule Book that states membership requirements for requesting a sanction or for being a meet director.

    All USA-S meets are automatically recognized without a specific sanction application as is noted in the USMS Rules.

    The reason for the dual sanction in most cases is for a USA-S meet conducted in SCM or LCM pools so that the masters times are recognized by FINA.

    Pool measurement rules always apply for the dual sanctioned event. However, for USA-S automatic recognition, the pool must have been measured initially in all lanes and be listed on the USMS List of Measured Pools but bulkhead confirmation measurements are not required for USMS Top 10 consideration.

    Is Montana doing the dual-sanction for SCY events? If so, it's not required.
    Jeanne Seidler, Wisconsin LMSC Vice Chair, Top Ten Recorder, Sanction Chair
    USMS Records and Tabulations Committee Chair

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    Re: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    Jeanne, we do dual-sanctions so that our Masters swimmers do not have join USA-S to compete in the USA-S meet. Our Masters swimmers compete with their USMS membership in dual-sanctioned meets. Very few of our Masters have both USA-S and USMS membership and we do accept their times from USA-S meets if they submit the required documentation.
    Mary Pohlmann

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    Very Active Member jseidler's Avatar
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    Re: Who does your LMSC allow to request a dual sanction?

    Thanks Mary. The membership issue that you mention makes sense for the dual sanction situation. I had not thought about the membership situation. I appreciate the reply.
    Jeanne Seidler, Wisconsin LMSC Vice Chair, Top Ten Recorder, Sanction Chair
    USMS Records and Tabulations Committee Chair

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