Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 36 of 36

Thread: Best swim at Mt Hood

  1. #21
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    536

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by sickfish View Post
    Yup. It makes sense, doesn't it? I think it's a perfectly reasonable explanation.
    Have you considered sitting out yourself.
    I can't tell if you are deliberately screwing with me, but I'll play along. What I'm talking about is: repetitive, extreme sandbagging, among elite swimmers (characteristics of which apply to neither you or me...unless sickfish isn't your real name?? Lochte, Phelps is it you?).

    A more reasonable theory might be clear water/less waves. A joy of thrashing the octogenerians (local meet) you were seeded with is another possibility about as likely as almost Olympians entering 8-10 secs over their final world record 50 time (surprisingly just after being seen cowering and vomiting in the corner bathroom stall in their profound anticipatory fear of failure).

    As far as me sitting out...denying USMS of my love, support, and heretofore untapped talents? Well, let's just say, it would be a crime.

    BTW do you ever let Mr/Mrs/significant other sickfish get the last word? Because I don't either.

  2. #22
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    north carolina
    Posts
    156
    Blog Entries
    184

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    do you ever let Mr/Mrs/significant other sickfish get the last word? Because I don't either.
    Of course. When I agree with it

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    A more reasonable theory might be clear water/less waves. A joy of thrashing the octogenerians (local meet) you were seeded with is another possibility about as likely as almost Olympians entering 8-10 secs over their final world record 50 time (surprisingly just after being seen cowering and vomiting in the corner bathroom stall in their profound anticipatory fear of failure).
    My position is that someone may have a reason to sandbag that is different than "just to be a jerk". I proposed one, I'm sure there are others. There are, in fact, perspectives other than your own. Bashing these swimmers by pretending to cheer their "time drops" is not bringing you any closer to understanding those perspectives. You're also undermining the fact that some of these really are great swims.

  3. #23
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    536

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by sickfish View Post
    My position is that someone may have a reason to sandbag that is different than "just to be a jerk".
    I absolutely get where you are coming from but I still believe we are talking about different things. I'm coming at it from a sportsmanship, personal integrity, fair play kind of angle. We all add some time from year to year to our seed times as we presume we are getting slower. That is normal. I'm also the poster boy of irony as I'm the most famous sandbagger in USMS (I have had two past attempts--one successful and one not).

    If you were in the two relays that got second after winning the fast heat in Portland and noted a certain team from the slow heat dropped two minutes, you might be pissed you were not afforded the opportunity to race that team. The winner in my age group for the 100 back in my age group at Greensboro, won from slow heat and surprise!...was also from that same team and repeatedly enters extremely slow times. If you won the fast heat at nationals and thought you had won, you would have been wrong. The first person mentioned in this thread always enters extremely slow times (also the same team) and regularly kills the heats she is in (and is a 3 time Olympian). I'm not disputing she is a great swimmer. I just cannot believe that the ridiculously slow times she enters is fear of failure.

    I know you don't agree with my methods and I understand the practice of sandbagging in all its forms is certainly all legal and legit (if the race director allows you to get away with it). Frankly, despite evidence to the contrary of this never ending thread, I don't really care that much. There are certainly many culprits, but many I believe are unaware and innocent. I'm just calling out the repeat offenders that are really good swimmers that ought to know better...just to let them know that I think it's kind of a dick move(s).
    Last edited by Kurt Dickson; September 3rd, 2016 at 12:49 PM. Reason: I had not previously heard of Google...Noriko Inada swam in three Olympic games (1992, 2000, 2004)

  4. #24
    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Posts
    476

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    ... If you won the fast heat at nationals and thought you had won, you would have been wrong. The first person mentioned in this thread always enters extremely slow times (also the same team) and regularly kills the heats she is in (and is a 3 time Olympian). I'm not disputing she is a great swimmer. I just cannot believe that the ridiculously slow times she enters is fear of failure. ...
    I think it's pretty laughable that you're so bent out of shape about this one specific swimmer. Most of us who have the misfortune of being both in her age group and swimming the same events know she's going to do what she does - we account for that when we see psych sheets, we automatically bump ourselves down a place in the heat to get our actual results once we've actually swum, and we move on. You're not the same gender or age as her, and if those of us actually impacted by it have come to terms with it (or don't even care about it in the first place), why do you have to whine about it? And so publicly call her out?

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules committee

  5. #25
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    536

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmieAvsFan View Post
    I think it's pretty laughable that you're so bent out of shape about this one specific swimmer.
    Try to stay with me Mollie. Your quote includes two DIFFERENT swimmers. I've officially called out two relays and 3 individuals in this thread (I only went to a state school but I think that's more than one).

    I am a member of USMS and can post what I want (within certain rules). You are welcome to read it or not. While you find it amusing and are dumbfounded why I care, I too am perplexed by a different reason--why you don't care about sportsmanship and respect for others.

  6. #26
    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Posts
    476

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    Try to stay with me Mollie. Your quote includes two DIFFERENT swimmers. I've officially called out two relays and 3 individuals in this thread (I only went to a state school but I think that's more than one).

    I am a member of USMS and can post what I want (within certain rules). You are welcome to read it or not. While you find it amusing and are dumbfounded why I care, I too am perplexed by a different reason--why you don't care about sportsmanship and respect for others.
    My main point was only that you've called out one single swimmer in this thread by name. To me, it seems if you're willing to name a specific swimmer, but only make oblique references to other teams, you've got a bigger bone to pick with the swimmer you've called out by name. And I think you're making a big leap that she's being unsportsmanlike and disrespectful by seeding herself the way she does. Unless you've talked to her, how can you know her motives for seeding herself in the manner that she does? Again, those of us who are directly impacted by her seeding decisions aren't whinging about them, so I guess I'm never going to understand your distress. Unless you have a horse in this race that I'm not seeing?

    Also, nowhere in my post did I tell you that you can't post whatever you'd like. Not implicitly or explicitly. But I can express my perplexity with your fixation on this specific swimmer. And why you consider sandbagging disrespectful.

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules committee

  7. #27
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    536

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmieAvsFan View Post
    My main point was only that you've called out one single swimmer in this thread by name.
    Read it again (first few); all but one were named: Noriko (PSC), Nick, and Phoenix Swim Club (PSC) relays. The other individual (PSC) not named but referred to later from Greensboro either was talked to or decided to enter appropriate times this time around although did not end up swimming.

    And if you see winning a national championship from a slower seeded heat as respectful/fair to others without a prelims/finals format then I will not be able to convince you otherwise.

  8. #28
    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Posts
    476

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    Read it again (first few); all but one were named: Noriko (PSC), Nick, and Phoenix Swim Club (PSC) relays. The other individual (PSC) not named but referred to later from Greensboro either was talked to or decided to enter appropriate times this time around although did not end up swimming.

    And if you see winning a national championship from a slower seeded heat as respectful/fair to others without a prelims/finals format then I will not be able to convince you otherwise.
    My mistake on the names.

    As for winning a national championship from a slower heat being fair/respectful- if Noriko has a lane, she's winning a national championship. Regardless of heat assignment. It's an inevitability unless she gets DQd. To me, it's a moot point. It's not like there was a single female in attendance at Mt. Hood that would have even been within striking distance of any of her backstroke times if we'd been in the same heat as her. So, taking the long view, it's not really worth getting bent about.

    Just for illustrative purposes:
    Even with prelims/finals, and assuming we all swam the same times in finals, the next closest swimmer to her would have been 4.5, 8.5, and 14 seconds behind her (50, 100, and 200 back, respectively). Plus being backstroke, it's not like we're really going to see her anyways. For full disclosure, the swimmer who was 8.5 and 14 seconds behind her was me. It doesn't bother me that she wasn't right next to me for the 200 (she was next to me in the 100), because I know she's going to beat me 10/10 times we race. I guess that's why I can't understand why someone else who has no horse in the race cares so much. If anyone out there has a right to be , it would be the swimmer who got 2nd in the 50 free who didn't get a chance to race her head-to-head.

    In the end, different stroke for different folks, I guess.

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules committee

  9. #29
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    536

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by swimmieAvsFan View Post
    As for winning a national championship from a slower heat being fair/respectful- if Noriko ...
    I think it might be you who is focused on one person. The incident of winning national championships from slower heats does not refer to her. It happened with their relays and with the aforementioned person who perhaps has changed HIS ways.

    You are absolutely correct in stating that nobody comes close to NI and even when she adds big times to her seeds, she is still in the fast heat. The male in my age group that won in Greensboro had two people within a second of him. Although they probably wouldn't have beat him, this loser (me) went from a big medal (3rd) to a microscopic, sad, small medal (4th). I believe there are a few out there that care about this as a general principle but perhaps not. I'm willing to let this die, never to be spoken about again, and maybe we can all hug it out in Riverside (if my daughter will change her wedding plans...so selfish that girl).

  10. #30
    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Washington D.C.
    Posts
    476

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    I think it might be you who is focused on one person. The incident of winning national championships from slower heats does not refer to her. It happened with their relays and with the aforementioned person who perhaps has changed HIS ways.

    You are absolutely correct in stating that nobody comes close to NI and even when she adds big times to her seeds, she is still in the fast heat. The male in my age group that won in Greensboro had two people within a second of him. Although they probably wouldn't have beat him, this loser (me) went from a big medal (3rd) to a microscopic, sad, small medal (4th). I believe there are a few out there that care about this as a general principle but perhaps not. I'm willing to let this die, never to be spoken about again, and maybe we can all hug it out in Riverside (if my daughter will change her wedding plans...so selfish that girl).
    Just as a point of clarification, NI won at least 3 of her national championships at Mt. Hood from not-the-fastest heat (both in pre-seeded and deck seeded events), so my comments still apply, even if you weren't talking about her. My mistake for reading a thread that specifically calls a person out and assuming situations that apply to her are actually about her.

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules committee

  11. #31
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Mulino,OR
    Posts
    4,369

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    It is rare for me to agree with Kirk, and I think that there can be "innocent" reasons for people entering times way off there finals times,but I agree that it is a little unfair for someone or some relay to win at Nats out of a heat other than the fast one due to a deliberate action.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  12. #32
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,972
    Blog Entries
    565

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by swoomer View Post
    We don't go and recruit swimmers. They come to us. There is usually a connection to a team member, but in some cases people have randomly approached and asked to join.
    Good to hear. I like to hear the "real story" from someone who knows. It's a lot more fun to be part of a team that acts like a team, that's for sure.

  13. #33
    Very Active Member Chris Stevenson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    4,158
    Blog Entries
    1217

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    I'm also the poster boy of irony as I'm the most famous sandbagger in USMS
    That has been the most entertaining aspect of the whole thread!
    These opinions are mine mine mine and not USMS'.

  14. #34
    Very Active Member Muppet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Posts
    1,121

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    Quote Originally Posted by swoomer View Post
    I happen to be a member of the "Yellow Clad Team" so speak with some knowledge. We don't go and recruit swimmers. They come to us. There is usually a connection to a team member, but in some cases people have randomly approached and asked to join. If you check the results, you will see that every single person on our team scored at least one point due to strategic event choice, but there are few superstars. Our National team consisted of a broad spectrum of swimmers, and most are pretty average in ability. We are a team...we support one another, and have a lot of fun. Maybe that's what draws people to us.
    Thanks for chiming in swoomer. This is exactly what I see as well.
    man up, buttercup!

  15. #35
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,972
    Blog Entries
    565

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    For the record, it was not Swim Fort Lauderdale that I heard someone accuse of cherry picking for relays, but I'm not going to name names

  16. #36
    Very Active Member jroddin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Silver Spring, MD
    Posts
    1,404

    Re: Best swim at Mt Hood

    My opinion (and not necessarily that of the Championship Committee) is sandbagging by the three examples Kurt gave is unsportsmanlike. That is just my opinion and I respect that others feel it is ok to sandbag. Operationally it is not good for the running of a meet. I realize for one to three examples in some sprints doesn’t greatly affect the outcome of the whole day. However, if one person in every single heat does this (~10% of the entries) you could indeed impact the overall duration of a session by a noticeable margin. So just saying it is “ok for me to do it” is not in the best spirit of the meet as a whole. Which to me is being unsportsmanlike.

    Also, in my opinion providing such false entry times is against the USMS Code of Regulations and Rules of Competition. There is a definition of seed times in the rulebook, so if you are falsifying your seed time by such great orders of magnitude you are in fact breaking our rules.

    Like I said, those are my opinions. Next I’ll discuss this from the Championship Committee perspective.

    Rule 104.5.5A(11) states:
    If a swimmer enters an event with a time significantly slower or faster than that swimmer’s recorded time in the past two years, the meet director may, after a discussion with the swimmer, change the seeded time to a realistic time.
    Unfortunately the enforcement of this rule is purely subjective. At this time there is no automation to detect such entry times. Some meets we never even utilize this option - others it is used one, two or three times. That is, the use of this rule is exceptionally rare when you take into account we have several thousand splashes at any given Nationals. And quite honestly, it is often only done because somebody else notices the suspect seed time in the psych sheets and brings it to the attention of the meet director. That is, the meet director doesn’t typically comb through several thousand seed times to look for these. Ms. Inada did this at a previous Nationals and it was pointed out on these Forums prior to the meet. In that case her times were changed prior to the meet. For Portland, nobody noticed (or more specifically, they weren’t brought to the attention of the meet director or Champ committee) so no changes were made.

    Jeff Roddin
    USMS Championship Committee

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Hood River, OR SCM Meet May 15th
    By backstroker53 in forum Oregon
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: April 24th, 2011, 11:00 PM
  2. LCM National Relays-Mt. Hood, Oregon
    By WPSWIMS in forum Colorado
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: July 3rd, 2008, 11:45 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •