Break the minute not having swam as a child

[larrycz]

Once again, thank you all for your comments. In particular, thanks to __steve__ for his detailed private response.

Unless I missed it, you have not mentioned what your training program is like – frequency and volume/practice.

The graphic gives an idea of my training volume in the blue bars for each month. It's actually hours of practice, not meters of distance. The tallest bar is a 24-hour month.

I'll try the kicking and glide tests soon, thanks for the tip. From doing similar tests in the past I'd estimate 22 seconds for the kick and 7m for the glide.

[Windrath]

Hi Larry -

Thanks for the info. The amount of training time seems ok - would be good to know what your volume is as well. Swimming 24 hours/month is good if you are averaging 2000-2500 yds/mtrs per hour, but not so good if you are only doing 1,000 yds/mtrs/hour.

Likewise, the kicking speed seems pretty good as well.

However, a glide of 7 mtrs suggests there is room for considerable improvement in your streamline position. I am about the same height and weight as you and could glide almost 20 yards when I was your age. I am down to 15 yards or so now - leg strength has dropped over the past 28 years. At that time, I was swimming 57 for 100 meters taking 15 strokes/length.

Great streamlining is important because the push-off is the second fastest you will go in a race. You will be faster only during the start. Holding that speed as long as possible is key and it will take you under the wave that follows you into the wall. You can practice the feel for streamlining by hanging from a pull-up bar with your hands overlapped, arms squeezing your ears, legs together, toes pointed, knees locked, and squeezing your belly button towards your spine. When you push off the wall, the top of your head should point towards the end of the pool. if you can see the other end of the pool, your head position is less than optimal.

You should attempt to streamline 7-9 yards off every turn you do. Speaking of which, are you doing open turns or flip turns? Bad flip turns can add 2 seconds/turn to your time.

Another skill to master is floating face down in the streamline position. This will give you immediate feedback about your balance in the water. If you can stay horizontal in a streamline position (holding your breath) with your heels at the surface of the water, you have good balance and muscle control. If you cannot do this, ask a synchronized swimmer to help. The better your balance, the faster you will go.

More to come with your reply.

Paul

[__steve__]

Once again, thank you all for your comments. In particular, thanks to __steve__ for his detailed private response.

You are welcome. Glad to help some. I’ve received so much collective assistance and help from this forum that resulted withincredible improvements in my race times. Posting videos for review and reading training accounts of others are also key. I still have significant improvements to make, it’s ongoing for all swimmers, but that’s what makes it worth while.

The kick time trials and glide tests are crucial for sprinters, good tip

[OliverK]

Hello larrycz,
there is a similar thread
http://theswimforum.palstani.com/t30-challenge-50-100-m
about the more basic challenge, for *late starters*, to swim 50m in 30s (and, easier, swimming 100m in 1:10).

I don't know whether you have already started master's races. I think at some point this serves as a good focus point / motivation.
I am also in the UK. One could meet at some events there, and discuss stuff (master's swimming seems, at least in the UK, an excessively anonymous undertaking, which perhaps comes from its being derived from club-swimming, where only the club exists -- no individuals).

[rtodd]

If you have been really serious for 5 years now, it could be tough. Over the course of the next 5 years or so, maybe you can get there. You are young, so you can get much better before age starts to slow you down. I started at 40 with zero youth swimming and got down to a 57 SCY in about 4 years or so and a 1:05 ish 100 SCM. I think I could have done it if I really wanted. I’m 53 now and my feel for the water has gotten so much better. Maybe I could get close now, but I don’t have the time.
A hint to do this is to get proficient in all the strokes. It will help your freestyle.

[__steve__]

A hint to do this is to get proficient in all the strokes. It will help your freestyle.

Good hint

[larrycz]

Windradth, you asked about distance per practice. I would average 1,500-2,000m per hour depending on stroke.

However, a glide of 7 mtrs suggests there is room for considerable improvement in your streamline position. I am about the same height and weight as you and could glide almost 20 yards when I was your age. I am down to 15 yards or so now - leg strength has dropped over the past 28 years.
Paul

15 yards to glide off a push is a surreal distance to me. Definitely an area I should look into. Maybe a high resolution video of me streamlining will tell me a lot. Thank you for the hint.

[larrycz]

I thought I would post back to say I've managed to drop 5 seconds by swimming a 1:11 short course metres

I've implemented stroke advice that radically changed the way I swim 100m freestyle – much flatter hips with less body roll, little or no 'extension' out front, just high elbows (or so I try). This seems to suit my body build much more than trying to extend and reach far on each stroke. Reaching appears to throw my alignment off balance and create wiggling and lots of frontal drag.

In addition I've done a good number of USRPT sets that allowed me to swim at ever faster stroke rate without getting swamped by lactate. In video of my personal best I maintain around 110 spm. With USRPT comes a lot of controversy (especially in the topics of drills, aids and kicking) but I have to say it worked well for me. In particular the fact that most of my sessions took 20 intense minutes during which I would do 100 warm-up, 10-20 x 25 short rest race pace and 100 cool-down (and job done).

The dream is still 59 seconds (short course is fine), so while it's great to drop 5 seconds, there are still 12 more to go. My raw speed per 25 has increased somewhat to 16 seconds push to feet. I suspect this really needs to be 14 seconds.

My stroke above and under water now looks like this:




Any thoughts beyond what's already been said that would help me get from 16 seconds per 25 to 15 and 14?

Thanks!

[67King]

Any thoughts beyond what's already been said?


Thanks!

I'd say that increasing your tempo would be a big help.

[JPEnge]

Your elbow is dropping on the pull opposite the side you breathe to. Make sure you are focusing on a good catch on that side.

[orca1946]

Yes - faster turn over stroke speed. Do you do flip turns?

[larrycz]

Thank you. What sort of rate for a 100 free would you say can work better for my build? I actually go out at 120 spm in my PB video and drop to 105 or so towards the end. Obviously would like to pace better. 16 seconds is push to feet, that means including a turn. The turn takes between 1.0 to 1.5 from last stroke to feet planted.

[67King]

Thank you. What sort of rate for a 100 free would you say can work better for my build? I actually go out at 120 spm in my PB video and drop to 105 or so towards the end. Obviously would like to pace better. 16 seconds is push to feet, that means including a turn. The turn takes between 1.0 to 1.5 from last stroke to feet planted.

Your video looks to be about 80-90. Hard to say, I can only see about 6 strokes. I dont know what a good rate is, to be honest. I imagine it depends on the individual. Maybe try some USRPT sets. Goal time is 15 seconds, play with stroke count to find what works best. For me, a sprint will be around 19 on a 25 yard pool, for a 13 second lap (I figure 4-5 seconds of that are UDK). So I'm guessing that will put me close to your 120 SPM? I cant quite hold that for a 100, just throwing a benchmark at you. And again, my figures are yards.

[habu987]

Stroke rate is very dependent on the individual. I'll take myself as an example.

There's another guy on my team who is about the same height and we are proportionally pretty similar, though I carry an extra 30 lbs or so that he doesn't...and less of that extra weight is muscle than I'd like, but that's a whole 'nother topic...

We're both about a 24.5 for a 50y free, but he has a much higher tempo than I do. We got a video of us both on a 200 free relay last year and I counted our strokes from the same point on the surface. For the 2nd lap of the 50, from the same point I was 15 strokes to the wall, he was 18.

Admittedly, I'm by no means a drop dead sprinter and my technique turns to utter crap on anything shorter than a 100, so a 50 might not be a great example for me. In a 100y free, I normally do 5 butterfly kicks off the wall, then take 14 strokes per lap. My time is about 54.5, but I'm not sure what my stroke rate comes out to, given the amount of time I spend underwater. I believe the other guy I mentioned is about 18-20 strokes per lap in the 100 with less time/distance underwater than I do and about the same time, but I haven't watched him do that race in a while.

EDIT: I went back and watched a video of a 100 free from last spring--I took 57 strokes and was on the surface for 39 seconds, giving me a stroke rate of 88 per minute.

[larrycz]

Thank you, these are useful comments

I may have caused some confusion. The two videos above are my recent attempts at 'tidying up' the stroke by pulling longer and slower. They are from a local 12m pool where I go to film myself.

The 105-115 spm I mention is referring to my 100 free race a couple of months ago. A rather different, much shorter stroke. For reference, I attach the video below.



The notion that stroke rate is highly individual reflects my experience. I struggle to sustain a 'muscling' stroke whereas a shorter choppier stroke seems to come more naturally to me. Would be interested to hear any more thoughts on this topic you guys might have.

The way I measure stroke rate is by tapping to a mobile app

[__steve__]

My 50yd typically 15 strokes out, and 21 back, mid - high 25’s. 6’4” arm span, 6’1” height

[67King]

The 105-115 spm I mention is referring to my 100 free race a couple of months ago. A rather different, much shorter stroke. For reference, I attach the video below.

The two things I see are your underwaters and your catch. Your first turn you didn't go very deep. Your UDK's at the start and first turn were at the surface, so you really didn't get much from them. Try to go deeper. You subsequent turns looked like you had a slow UDK, only took one on the second turn, couldn't tell on teh third. But I think you have some room for improvement there.

Looks like you are dropping your elbow, which prevents any sort of early vertical forearm. WHen your hand enters the water and you start your catch, make sure your fingertips get below the wrist, wrist below elbow. Imagine wrapping your forearm on top of a shelf and trying to pull your body up from there.

[Skuj]

Fascinating thread. Thanks to all for the suggestions/info for Larrycz, because they help inform this 57yr old newbie also.

Larrycz, what is your 50m time, currently?

I'm surprised that you can do 1:11 100m, but "only" 16sec 25m. I'm currently 1:20 100m, but 16.8 for 25m. (36.5 50m.) I know I will never touch 59sec 100m with a 10ft pole, but I'm passionate about improving, as you are.

I'm clearly no expert, but as you say, 14sec for 25m might be a first benchmark in this journey??

[larrycz]

I think the answer to your question is that I time it push to feet, ie it includes a flip turn. From push to hands (ie to touch) I should be able to repeat 15 mid to 15 high on moderate rest. This becomes 18 when I rest 15-20 seconds.

[Skuj]

Gotcha. Still curious though....how close to 30sec 50m are you?