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Thread: Instead of DQing for a False Start

  1. #1
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    Instead of DQing for a False Start

    There is nothing more challenging for an official than having to DQ a swimmer for a false start: either a dual confirmation done after the heat has been started or for the lone swimmer who goes in all by themselves.

    It is a shame that starting early and only gaining, at most, .5 seconds results in the entire race being nullified. I would hate to be the 400 IMer or the 1650 swimmer if that were to happen.

    So, instead of nullifying the entire swim, consider a time penalty assessed for a False Start. In either situation that I mentioned in the first paragraph, the swimmer incurs a 5 seconds penalty when the False Start is dual confirmed. The swimmer gets the benefit of the race, albeit with a time penalty.

    This could be managed quite easier with a software change in Meet Manager or whatever meet software is being used.

    Paul

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    aka Elaine-iaK & Aqua Dog ElaineK's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    There is nothing more challenging for an official than having to DQ a swimmer for a false start: either a dual confirmation done after the heat has been started or for the lone swimmer who goes in all by themselves.

    It is a shame that starting early and only gaining, at most, .5 seconds results in the entire race being nullified. I would hate to be the 400 IMer or the 1650 swimmer if that were to happen.

    So, instead of nullifying the entire swim, consider a time penalty assessed for a False Start. In either situation that I mentioned in the first paragraph, the swimmer incurs a 5 seconds penalty when the False Start is dual confirmed. The swimmer gets the benefit of the race, albeit with a time penalty.

    This could be managed quite easier with a software change in Meet Manager or whatever meet software is being used.

    Paul

    Paul, I have read all of your posts on proposed rule changes, and they all make good sense to me. I would vote in favor of all of them, if I had a say!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Thanks for the support, Ellaine.

    I hate to see the rules written to negate the entire effort. Although it probably can't possibly happen, I would like to see something along the lines of Diving or Skating or Synchro where, instead of DQs, there are time penalties for some of the infractions instead of absolute DQs.

    For example, a butterfly doing a flutter kick gets a 5 sec penalty. Or if their arms do not recovery at the same time - 5 secs. Or, breaststroke when the head does not break the surface before the insweep of the second pull (off the turn) - 5 sec. One hand touch on fly or breaststroke - 5 secs.

    Or, for backstroke, don't DQ for a glide into the turn. They have already "penalized" themselves by gliding. AND, we allow gliding into the turn on every other stroke, why not backstroke?

    No athlete likes to go slow and the penalty will be a better motivation than a DQ.

    Paul

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    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Very interesting concepts. 5 secs. in a 50 is a lot. Maybe more for distance? About that fly rule concerning not recovering above the water at the same time rule - a call from one official is all it takes to DQ a 200 flyer in the older age brackets is kind of silly! IMHO

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    Very Active Member Redbird Alum's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    My main question is, if the person so "penalized" still "wins" the race ahead of folks who stay legal, is that okay? And are these rule changes universal, or only in non-championship settings?


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    Very Active Member ForceDJ's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by windrath
    It is a shame that starting early and only gaining, at most, .5 seconds results in the entire race being nullified.
    Just playing Devil's advocate...but in the the longer distance races you mention...if a swimmer false starts in one of those longer races then it's on them. Like you indicate...why jeopardize that long of a race to gain just .5 second?

    But...so in a 200 for example...what is your suggestion for signaling to the swimmers that there was a false start? To tell them "There was a false start but keep swimming." And then "Woops. Officials indicated the wrong lane for the false start" I mean if you saw a signal from officials (perhaps incorrect signal) that you false started and are being penalized 5 seconds in the 100 freestyle...would you continue swimming? Five seconds in a 100 puts you in last place. Why continue? And then to find out it's in error??? In a 50 no one may even look up to see an indication that there was a false start, nor which lane it was. So...in certain distance/strokes...it really could throw the race out of whack if it was lane 6 (i.e. perhaps the last place swimmer) that false started, but no one knows for sure. I think the most equitable way is to to restart with the offender DQ'd.

    Dan
    Last edited by ForceDJ; December 31st, 2017 at 11:42 PM.

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Happy New year Everyone!

    My thoughts regarding the latest posts:

    Redbird Alum - thanks for the post. Think of this in the same way triathletes are penalized for drafting or in open water swims or in golf or hockey or basketball. What if a player was ejected for a single foul or a golfer was removed from a 4 day tournament if their ball goes out of bounds. Yes, the rule would become universal at all levels.

    Dan - thanks for the post and playing devil's advocate. There are two situations to consider and I did not differentiate the two. One is when a swimmer leaves the blocks before the start signal. In this case, the Starter/Deck Ref have the discretion to DQ or not. To my way of thinking, that swimmer would be given the option to compete with the 5 sec penalty or could withdraw from the race counting towards their event limit. Their decision should be announced to all swimmers in the heat just like is done if a swimmer is going for a fast intermediate split in a race (a 50 time in a 1650). The second situation is when the start signal has been given and the swimmers are in the water. Under this situation, the swimmers do not know if there was a DQ and should not stop because they assume they'll be DQ'd. False starts must be confirmed by the deck officials and they might not agree.

    Thoughts?

    Paul

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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Personally I like the rules the way they are now: all or nothing. A DQ is a DQ and it negates the entire swim.

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    Very Active Member ForceDJ's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    I don't really swim in meets. But I'm wondering...does FINA/USA Swimming/USMS use "reaction time" for their false starts? In track and field, the blocks have sensors on them that calculate the runner's reaction time after the gun. There is a standard (i.e. fastest human possible) reaction time allowed. If the runner's reaction time after the gun is too fast then they are false started (DQ).

    Dan

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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by ForceDJ View Post
    I don't really swim in meets. But I'm wondering...does FINA/USA Swimming/USMS use "reaction time" for their false starts? In track and field, the blocks have sensors on them that calculate the runner's reaction time after the gun. There is a standard (i.e. fastest human possible) reaction time allowed. If the runner's reaction time after the gun is too fast then they are false started (DQ).

    Dan
    Not for individual events. The reaction times are only used to indicate false starts in relays.

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Knelson -

    Just to play devil's advocate on a different playing field. If a DQ is a DQ and negates the swim, would you agree that taking your car taken away for your first speeding ticket is fair? Same idea to me.

    I am not saying there should not be a penalty for doing something wrong, I am just saying the current penalty (complete negation of the swim) did NOT fit the "crime." Especially if the "crime" does not result in a better time or a better place in the race.

    Paul

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Knelson -

    Just to play devil's advocate on a different playing field. If a DQ is a DQ and negates the swim, would you agree that taking your car taken away for your first speeding ticket is fair? Same idea to me.

    I am not saying there should not be a penalty for doing something wrong, I am just saying the current penalty (complete negation of the swim) did NOT fit the "crime." Especially if the "crime" does not result in a better time or a better place in the race.

    Paul
    I think this is a completely apples to oranges argument. In sports the rules need to be black and white. Fairness is dictated by whether the rules are applied equitably.

    I don't think a football team should score three points for getting stopped at the goal line just short of a touchdown or a basketball team getting one point for a field goal attempt that rattles around the rim.

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Knelson -

    Just to play devil's advocate on a different playing field. If a DQ is a DQ and negates the swim, would you agree that taking your car taken away for your first speeding ticket is fair? Same idea to me.

    I am not saying there should not be a penalty for doing something wrong, I am just saying the current penalty (complete negation of the swim) did NOT fit the "crime." Especially if the "crime" does not result in a better time or a better place in the race.

    Paul
    Paul,

    I don't share this analogy. Are you suggesting it's ok to give a "penalty" time addition for a false start instead of negating the whole swim; but ok to DQ (negate the whole swim) if you should do a one handed turn in fly or breast, or take two dolphins in a breast pullout, etc.? Are you suggesting a time penalty for one infraction but not others? I guess my question is where do you draw the line? If you swam a 400 LCM IM and took a weak second dolphin kick on one breast pullout the whole swim is negated (assuming you get caught!), and that is ok with you but the false start is not? I'm not seeing the difference.

    Fun discussion!

    Jeff

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    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Lets say you have a really fast relay, over 5 sec faster than #2, very close to the WR. With the 5 sec rule you can be very aggressive with your starts, maybe saving enough time for the WR, and if you are too aggressive you can still win. That totally changes the dynamic of the swims.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Stark View Post
    Lets say you have a really fast relay, over 5 sec faster than #2, very close to the WR. With the 5 sec rule you can be very aggressive with your starts, maybe saving enough time for the WR, and if you are too aggressive you can still win. That totally changes the dynamic of the swims.
    I've been waiting for this view to pop up! "Strategic cheating"


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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Hi Jeff -

    Good to ask the question. I am suggesting that most DQs have a time penalty instead of an absolute "negate the swim" result. Personally, I think 2 handed touches on breaststroke and fly should go the way of the hand touch on freestyle and backstroke turns, but the converse argument that one hand touch violates the symmetry of the stroke wins out - for now.

    To your specific example, I think a second dolphin kick should be a 5 sec penalty vs a complete DQ. The hard part of this thought process is administration. You could end up raising your hand for everything you see and it becomes impossible to manage. This is why I used 5 seconds. BUT, it could be 5 secs in 50 races, 10 secs in 100s, etc.. The specific amount is not the key part of this discussion. The key is the concept of penalty to encourage correct swimming vs a complete DQ.

    Paul

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Hi Allen,

    Not so fast, buckaroo. I think you are mixing relays and individual swims. First - 5 seconds is alot of time. Most false starts that require dual confirmation are less than .2 sec too fast. Should a swimmer try to start 5 sec before the starter starts the heat, they would have to take off before the Starter evens says "Take you Mark." Obviously, the Starter would stand the heat up, the offending swimmer would be advised that they could swim it again with a 5 sec penalty added to their final time. If they tried it again, the Meet Referee should DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct.

    As this relates to your specific case, the 5 sec penalty applies to the first leg. After that, the combined exchange time of all three exchanges must be positive. I continue to believe there is no way a lead off swimmer (or individual swimmer) could leave the blocks 5 seconds before the rest of the heat and get away with it. The Starter and Meet Referee would have to be blind or bribed.

    Perhaps I am missing something, so please clarify what I missed.

    Paul

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    I'm wiht the "strategic cheating" crowd, in that I don't like the proposed rule change, as it would further push people to try to anticipate the start. Seems like it would be adding the distance, even wiht a multiplier, a defensive lineman has made his way across the line before theh snap in football. It completely changes the race/play if you don't make it black and white.

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Hi Allen,

    Not so fast, buckaroo. I think you are mixing relays and individual swims. First - 5 seconds is alot of time. Most false starts that require dual confirmation are less than .2 sec too fast. Should a swimmer try to start 5 sec before the starter starts the heat, they would have to take off before the Starter evens says "Take you Mark." Obviously, the Starter would stand the heat up, the offending swimmer would be advised that they could swim it again with a 5 sec penalty added to their final time. If they tried it again, the Meet Referee should DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct.

    As this relates to your specific case, the 5 sec penalty applies to the first leg. After that, the combined exchange time of all three exchanges must be positive. I continue to believe there is no way a lead off swimmer (or individual swimmer) could leave the blocks 5 seconds before the rest of the heat and get away with it. The Starter and Meet Referee would have to be blind or bribed.

    Perhaps I am missing something, so please clarify what I missed.

    Paul
    I assume Allen means the relay would have a clean start and then the other three could push their starts (exchanges) as much as they can without false starting; but if one pushes it too far and they get called for it, they would lose the WR after getting the 5 second penalty but at least still potentially win the race. If all of the starts are right on the money then perhaps they get the WR by .01. I think that is what he is trying to say.

    This is all lively discussion, but assessing various penalties for all of the different infractions (and event distances) would be WAY too subjective and impossible to get everybody to agree to those numbers to pass rules (in my opinion).

    Jeff

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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    You know,

    If the relay lead off does incur a 5 sec penalty, the subsequent exchanges cumulatively positive, and they still break the world record, more power to them.

    The "subjective" argument is always brought up as a reason this cannot be done, but I don't see it that way. Hockey has the penalty box, football has penalties, basketball has penalties, the Biathlon has the penalty box and triathlons have time penalties for drafting. The penalty amount is subjective and agreed to. There is no specific rationale for why the penalties are what they are. If you can't afford the penalty, don't do the crime.

    Now, imagine in academics if one wrong answer resulted in a ZERO on the test. Imagine a foul in basketball resulting in the player being ejected, or worse, the team automatically losses the game. This is what swimming is right now. Some cultures cut off the hand of a thief. This is what swimming is doing with our current system.

    I am simply proposing a better way to handle technical violations that are a better way to motivate athletes to abide by the rules.

    Paul

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