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Thread: Instead of DQing for a False Start

  1. #21
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Good Morning Jeff,

    You know, we live in a subjective world - it is all around us. How much a house costs? How much we get paid? The cost of s speeding ticket or the length of a prison sentence.

    I suppose we could set up a "penalty committee" to decide on the severity of DQs that is dependent on the meet, the skill of the swimmer, etc.. Kind of like a jury trial with a jury of our peers. (LOL).

    A couple of weeks ago, Oregon Masters had an Animal meet where each swimmer had to enter three events - fly, IM, and free (3 different levels of "animal"). Some swimmers choose to only enter two events and did not care if they were included in the overall ranking. Those swimmers were "awarded" a time of the slowest swimmer in the event they skipped PLUS 20 seconds. I thought this was kind of ingenious.

    Now, if we are worried about being subjective, there is one rule in our rule books under Swimming Competition that should not be there - it is about as subjective as it gets. Read rule 102.13.14.

    As a friend used to say - "Make for yourself a great day!"

    Paul

  2. #22
    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Now, if we are worried about being subjective, there is one rule in our rule books under Swimming Competition that should not be there - it is about as subjective as it gets. Read rule 102.13.14.
    Not sure why you think this is so subjective, it only says that officials cannot DQ a legal swim for rules broken after it has finished. Although this may be attractive to some officials trying to deal with a real jerk, it seems to be pretty objective to me.

    As for your thread subject, I can only find reasons to include everyone in every race, no matter how they perform. Different fines for leaving early, swimming the wrong stroke, turning in the middle of the course, changing lanes, running starts. The list is as endless as your imagination. All that is needed is a comprehensive table of fines.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

  3. #23
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Michael -

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Heather View Post
    Not sure why you think this is so subjective, it only says that officials cannot DQ a legal swim for rules broken after it has finished. Although this may be attractive to some officials trying to deal with a real jerk, it seems to be pretty objective to me.
    Rule 102.13.14 reads: "A swimmer who misrepresents a seed time, causing a significant delay of the meet, may be disqualified at the discretion of the referee. The disqualified swimmer shall be removed from the lane as soon as practical."

    If you this rule is objective and can be consistently applied, please define "misrepresents", "significant", "may", "discretion", or "practical" for me??? Each of these can only be determined through the eyes of the referee and I know at least two who will not invoke this rule under any circumstances because it is so vague.

    You are missing the simplicity of this change. The rules do not change. The only change is some infractions that used to result in a "DQ" now have a time penalty and the time does not change from infraction to infraction. It would always be whatever could be agreed to - I like 5 seconds. Some of your examples - "Turning in the middle of the lane, running starts" - cannot take place now. If someone tried, they would still be "DQs" like they are now.

    The penalty would be written into the meet management software.

    Try some other reasons why not to - I am enjoying this.

    Paul

  4. #24
    Very Active Member swimmieAvsFan's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Michael -


    Rule 102.13.14 reads: "A swimmer who misrepresents a seed time, causing a significant delay of the meet, may be disqualified at the discretion of the referee. The disqualified swimmer shall be removed from the lane as soon as practical."...
    Paul, just as a point of clarification, the language you cited above is from article 102.13.15 in the 2018 Rule Book. What Michael mentions below is from article 102.13.14.

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules Committee Co-Vice Chair

  5. #25
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Hi Mollie -

    I do not have the 2018 rule book yet. My only reference is the 2017 rule book that Mary Beth has.

    Paul

  6. #26
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Hi Mollie -

    I do not have the 2018 rule book yet. My only reference is the 2017 rule book that Mary Beth has.

    Paul
    For Paul, and anyone else interested, the 2018 Rule Book can be found in an electronic format at http://www.usms.org/rules/

    Mollie Grover
    Potomac Valley Top Ten Recorder
    USMS Rules Committee Co-Vice Chair

  7. #27
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    You are missing the simplicity of this change. The rules do not change. The only change is some infractions that used to result in a "DQ" now have a time penalty and the time does not change from infraction to infraction. It would always be whatever could be agreed to - I like 5 seconds. Some of your examples - "Turning in the middle of the lane, running starts" - cannot take place now. If someone tried, they would still be "DQs" like they are now.
    Iím not sure how simple this would be. I sometimes see no touch on turn DQís today and they are always from a swimmer mistiming a turn and missing the wall by inches. These no touches almost always result in a slower turn than if the swimmer has hit the wall. Unless there is something build into the rules to differentiate missed it by an inch or missed it by a mile then they need to be treated the same.

    The same would hold true for relay exchanges. A 5 second penalty for an early takeoff on a -0.04 makes sense, but if there is a 5 second penalty then Iím starting my fly when the breaststroker is turning at the far end.

    Now when a swimmer is DQed there is only 1 DQ. In Paulís brave new world is there 1 or multiple penalties per swimmer. E.g. in the 100 breast a swimmer uses a downward dolphin kick on each stroke; is this 1 5 second penalty for downward dolphin kick or 40 5 second penalties for each kick? My dolphin kick breast is at least 10 seconds faster than that froggy thing, so I would easily make up the 5 seconds, but 3:20 in penalties would be a little tougher.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine and not those of U.S. Masters Swimming.

  8. #28
    Very Active Member arthur's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    I generally swim 50-200m events but I think I would rather get a DQ than get an official result with a 5 second penalty.

  9. #29
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    HI Rob,

    Thanks for posting. The answer to your situations was something I covered a few responses back.

    These situations involving gross violations would be dealt with through unsportsmanlike conduct decisions by the officials on the pool deck. These would be automatic DQs. Someone turning in the middle of the pool or flagrantly taking 2-3-4 strokes on their stomach during a backstroke turn or repeated violations (your dolphin kick vs the froggy thing) would fall into this category. As for the person who misses the wall by an inch, I hate DQing the person because they had not helped themselves. However, this one would be processed as a DQ because the person did not complete the required race distance.

    Relays have to a have a cumulative positive exchange when all three are added up. The exchange you describe would either be a flagrant exchange (DQ for unsportsmanlike) or would require the next swimmer (freestyle in this example) to wait an equally long time after you touched the wall if the relay were to be legal.

    And, remember, I suggested 5 seconds as the penalty. The Rules committee could just as easily decide 10 secs or 15 or 20 sec is a fair penalty. Or, the penalty could be based on the length of the race, so your dolphin kick vs froggy thing could not be a benefit.

    What do you think?

    Paul

  10. #30
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    What do you think?
    Paul,

    I like the concept of less than DQ penalties. And Iíve seen my fair share of DQís as a result of non-advantageous activities (rocking back at start, toes missing wall on turn, mid-pool goggle adjustment on fly/breast with flutter kick).

    My main issues are 1) I donít see this radical change getting through FINA or USA-S in my lifetime, 2) we might see more swimmers trying to get away with stuff since the penalty isnít as severe, 3) it adds another level of complexity to officiating, was the infraction incidental, beneficial, flagrant, unsporting, etc; instead of what was observed, 4) the DQ slip would need to be modified to accommodate changes, and 5) as you mentioned meet management software would need enhancements. Unless USA ĖS adopted this radical philosophy, I donít see USA-S changing DQ slips for USMS and I donít see Active and other meet management software vendors making the necessary enhancements.

    But if we suspend reality, I like the discussion. Kind of like who would win a 400 Medley Relay between the Justice League and the Avengers.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine and not those of U.S. Masters Swimming.

  11. #31
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    I wonder if such a change would make matters better, or worse, regarding the perennial question of whether to DQ young summer-league swimmers who's strokes are't legal. I imagine that anyone who has ever officiated a summer league meet, (or any meet with very young swimmers) has felt competing pressures on this issue. Some people say, "DQ them, it is a learning opportunity". Others say, "don't DQ them, it is a waste of time to process the DQ because they aren't scoring points anyway, or it might be hard on them emotionally, or..."

    This is all moot speculation though. I too don't see this happening given the effort that would required on many levels to make it happen.

  12. #32
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Copeland View Post
    Paul,

    I like the concept of less than DQ penalties. And Iíve seen my fair share of DQís as a result of non-advantageous activities (rocking back at start, toes missing wall on turn, mid-pool goggle adjustment on fly/breast with flutter kick).

    My main issues are 1) I donít see this radical change getting through FINA or USA-S in my lifetime, 2) we might see more swimmers trying to get away with stuff since the penalty isnít as severe, 3) it adds another level of complexity to officiating, was the infraction incidental, beneficial, flagrant, unsporting, etc; instead of what was observed, 4) the DQ slip would need to be modified to accommodate changes, and 5) as you mentioned meet management software would need enhancements. Unless USA ĖS adopted this radical philosophy, I donít see USA-S changing DQ slips for USMS and I donít see Active and other meet management software vendors making the necessary enhancements.

    But if we suspend reality, I like the discussion. Kind of like who would win a 400 Medley Relay between the Justice League and the Avengers.
    Mixed Medley, clearly Justice League. BK Superman, BR The Flash, fly Hawk Girl( if you allow her, Supergirl instead), free Wonder Woman. Swimming Barry Allen, he could go fast enough to reverse time, so it doesn't matter how slow the others are. They would still finish before they started. In answer to the question, can he swim BR? he was my childhood hero, so of course he can, also, you can't DQ what you can't see.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  13. #33
    Very Active Member m2tall2's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    The concept is interesting. Iíll give you more fuel to argue with yourself.
    If a swimmer false starts, even by a blink, the swimmer should be disqualified because itís unsportsmanlike. An overly quick reaction can throw off the swimmers next to them and is deserving of more than a time penalty because their action affected a level playing field. The swimmers on one end of the pool are blissfully unaware. The swimmers next to the offender generally hesitate or jump early as a result of the movement of a swimmer next to them.
    Also, in swimming, the judge is supposed to be 100% confident in all DQs. There is no video replay for officials. In all questionable cases, the benefit is supposed to go to the swimmer. If someone really is a barely a flinch too soon off the blocks, is the human eye really going to pick that up with 100% certainty? No.
    Also, if you miss the wall and really, truly are missing it by a toenail but you went into the wall with certainty and kicked hard enough to get off of it, thereís going to be a lot of bubbles. If the official canít see through the bubbles, thereís no DQ because the official canít be 100% sure if the toenail hit the wall or didnít hit the wall. So, now weíd be assessing penalties on things were SURE broke the rules, not cases of maybe they did and maybe they didnít.

  14. #34
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Thanks for your thoughts m2tall2 -

    The beauty of this proposal is that Officials do NOTHING different than they current are doing. if they are not 100% confident about the rules infraction, they should not make the call. We are in complete agreement in this regard.

    The change I propose is that the outcome of the rule infraction is not a DQ that negates the entire swim. A time penalty is assessed that takes place after the DQ is confirmed by the Deck/Meet referee. Since the time penalty is pre-determined, it is built into the meet management software and not subject to alteration by the officials.

    Swimmers who intentionally violate the rules can be DQ'd for unsportsmanlike conduct - same as the current rules allow.

    To summarize, the way swims are officiated does not change. The officials are not asked to judge differently that they currently do.

    make sense?

    Paul

  15. #35
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    There is another thread ďTimes invalidated because of pool measurementĒ where I think the time penalty would be a just solution. Letís say a 25 yard pool is less than 2 inches short (about 0.2%) or a bulkhead was improperly measured, I believe 1% time penalty applied to all times would be much more fair than invalidating all times.

    The same could hold true for times invalidated because of failure to properly ďDetermination of Official TimeĒ. If there was a good time that failed to be properly determined then let the swim count and apply the 1% penalty.

    Today for both of these situations the times donít count, similar to a DQ. And in both of these situations the swimmer is not at fault.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine and not those of U.S. Masters Swimming.

  16. #36
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Absolutely in agreement,

    I have always been a proponent of invoking an adjustment factor so the time is "corrected" to the correct distance.

    We do it for altitude, why not for short pools?

    Oh, we should do it for long pools too? Our times will get faster.

  17. #37
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    I agree with the short pool time penalty. With bulkhead pools, the pre-meet measurement can be fine and the post meet measurement could be 1cm short. no one knows during that session that all the times don't count. I agree that those times shouldn't be WRs or ZRs, but a 1% adjustment might still get you TT or NQT or whatever your goal is.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
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  18. #38
    Paint test area ahead Michael Heather's Avatar
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    Re: Instead of DQing for a False Start

    Simple solution, without having to adjust times. DQ everyone in the heat that did not win. That would open up some interesting and fascinating training and competition techniques.
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine, not those of U.S. Masters Swimming. But maybe they should be.

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