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Thread: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certification

  1. #21
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    bulkheads move
    period
    they flex
    the holes egg out
    the wrong pins may be used
    and there are a few ways to even cheat with them - yes ive seen it
    i've seen World Records erased - same meet as my top 10s that were erased

    bulkheads need to be measured as per the rules

  2. #22
    Very Active Member Karlene's Avatar
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post
    See Paul Windrath's post. You'll be fine!
    That's not how I'm reading the meet information. I will be contacting both the meet host and the National Office to make sure. Don't want any surprises when I try to enter the 1650 without a valid NQT.

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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    That much flex, it seems to me. to be a construction design fault. We need to make manufactures hold to specified amount of flex .
    Maybe additional anchor points along the length of the movable wall portion.

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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by orca1946 View Post
    That much flex, it seems to me. to be a construction design fault. We need to make manufactures hold to specified amount of flex .
    Maybe additional anchor points along the length of the movable wall portion.
    so you are willing to put up the monies for this, thanks for volunteering

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    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    If I were selling these --- a suggestion to the manufacture to improve them and if they did, would be a greater selling point.

  6. #26
    Very Active Member jroddin's Avatar
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlene View Post
    Bob, I understand your frustration in having top 10 swims invalidated. I've probably lost over 20 TT times over the past 25 years due to RD not submitting results and inaccurate pool lengths. I was also at the meet in question, spending two nights in hotels, meals, travel, etc. My goal was to get a NQT in the mile to use for SC Nationals in Indy. My 1500 meter time was 35 seconds faster than the NQT straight up and over a minute faster when converted from LCM to SCY. My question to USMS is: Am I going to have to go to another out of town meet, with the attendant expenses, when my invalidated time is easily faster than the NQT? Per Paul's earlier post, 1/4 inch per length comes out to about 8 inches over 1500 meters. Obviously it won't take me over a minute to cover those 8 inches. And no, I can't enter this event without a NQT per the meet information.
    Karlene,

    Here is a link to the NQT FAQ:
    www.usms.org/comp/NQT-FAQ.pdf

    Here is a cut and paste of the relevant section that may answer your question:

    3. Where can I swim my times (e.g. does it have to be a USMS meet)?
    Can a USA-S meet, a nonsanctioned meet or a time from my coach during workout count as achieving the NQT?
    It does not have to be swum at a USMS sanctioned meet. It can be swum at a USA-S meet, a YMCA meet or during a time trial or in a workout with your coach.
    So no, you don't have to travel to another meet.

    Jeff Roddin
    USMS Championship Committee Chair

  7. #27
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by sunruh View Post
    bulkheads move
    period
    they flex
    the holes egg out
    the wrong pins may be used
    and there are a few ways to even cheat with them - yes ive seen it
    i've seen World Records erased - same meet as my top 10s that were erased

    bulkheads need to be measured as per the rules
    Exactly. The only way to know for sure if the pool meets the requirements is to measure it before and during the course of a meet.

    Quote Originally Posted by orca1946 View Post
    That much flex, it seems to me. to be a construction design fault. We need to make manufactures hold to specified amount of flex
    Not really. It's a function of the lane lines being tightened. Tighten them too much and there's going to be some bowing.

  8. #28
    Very Active Member Karlene's Avatar
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by jroddin View Post
    Karlene,

    Here is a link to the NQT FAQ:
    www.usms.org/comp/NQT-FAQ.pdf

    Here is a cut and paste of the relevant section that may answer your question:



    So no, you don't have to travel to another meet.

    Jeff Roddin
    USMS Championship Committee Chair
    Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I do find it odd that NQTs are required but an honor system is being used. Assumed a verification for that time would be expected to avoid super slow entries (the purpose of a NQT).

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    Very Active Member flystorms's Avatar
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by Karlene View Post
    Thanks for the clarification, Jeff. I do find it odd that NQTs are required but an honor system is being used. Assumed a verification for that time would be expected to avoid super slow entries (the purpose of a NQT).
    So Jeff, just for clarification, if the coach captures a time for you that meets the NQT standards, does it have to be recorded anywhere? Or is this where the honor system comes into play? We have a tiny team in Memphis and are looking for opportunities for some of our folks to go to Nationals and do more than three events if they can. Thanks in advance.
    "If your ship doesn't come in, swim out to meet it." - Jonathan Winters, actor and comedian

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    Very Active Member JPEnge's Avatar
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by flystorms View Post
    So Jeff, just for clarification, if the coach captures a time for you that meets the NQT standards, does it have to be recorded anywhere? Or is this where the honor system comes into play? We have a tiny team in Memphis and are looking for opportunities for some of our folks to go to Nationals and do more than three events if they can. Thanks in advance.
    I had the same kind of question because I didn't know if I'd be able to go to an SCY meet before Nationals and I wanted to expand from my SCM meet schedule of 50s, and it does indeed look like it's more or less an honor system - there isn't a proof-of-time procedure like in USA-S meets.
    400 IMer/200 backstroker in another life, now sprinter/breaststroker... Yeah, I don't know how that happened either!

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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by flystorms View Post
    So Jeff, just for clarification, if the coach captures a time for you that meets the NQT standards, does it have to be recorded anywhere? Or is this where the honor system comes into play? We have a tiny team in Memphis and are looking for opportunities for some of our folks to go to Nationals and do more than three events if they can. Thanks in advance.
    See FAQ&A here:
    http://forums.usms.org/showthread.ph...l=1#post177260

  12. #32
    Very Active Member ForceDJ's Avatar
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    So I'm just wondering...how much does a pool length need to be "off" for it to be inaccurate, and for times to be invalidated?

    Today while lifeguarding at my pool I asked the pool manager if the pools had ever been certified by any governing body. The pool is only about five years old. But, she said "No, not to my knowledge." But, she was instantly very concerned and got out her steel tape measure so that she and I could check it. We measured both sides, and at first we were sure the 25 meter pool was long by abut 1.75 inches. But then we realized we mis-read the conversion of 25 meters to feet-inches. Turns out that it's 'spot on'...or at least within a quarter inch...by human-steel tape measurements. But my question is...how far off is considered "inaccurate" by USA Swimming/USMS/FINA ?

    Dan

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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Hi Dan,

    All of this is in the USMS rule book under sections 106 (Facility Standards) with some additional info under Section 105 and Appendix B.

    The pool must be at least as long as the minimum required in the Rule book. There is no allowance for being shorter, so "within" a quarter inch is only acceptable if it is long.

    When you measured, it was probably without pads, so there is an additional allowance that must be made for the width of the pad. If you pool is "spot on" without pads, it may be too short when a pad is put in for meets. This is why we really prefer pool measurements to be done with the pad(s) in place.

    If your pool has a bulkhead on one of the turning ends, it gets even more involved because bulkheads can move which changes the course length.

    Pools do not have to be certified if competition will never be held in the pool. USMS keeps a list of pools that have been measured. What is the name of your pool? If a masters meet has been held there, it has to have been measured for the times to count and the pool would be on the USMS list.

    Alot of effort goes into making sure pools meet or exceed the minimum acceptable length

  14. #34
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    Re: Times invalidated because of pool measurement certificat

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Pools do not have to be certified if competition will never be held in the pool.
    I suppose the pool I'm referencing falls under this consideration since it's on a Navy base. I mean we have a USMS group that works out there (active duty, military retirees, family members, and government civilian employees), and until several years ago there was a youth club sponsored by the base that practiced there (in the old pool). But it never hosted (sanctioned) meets that I can recall. Usually the military frowns on allowing the civilian community on bases for such things, and often actually discourages it in odd ways. Not building the pool length to accommodate timing pads may be one of them. But...one never knows! I mean it seems like any company worthy of building competition pools would inform their customers of things such as extra length of a couple inches to allow for timing pads, etc. Before this current pool...which is only about five years old...the pool on this Navy base was 35 (thirty-five) yards long. And, there was not just one, but actually three pools that length on the base at one time. Evidently they were all WWII era pools. I never could ascertain how/why they arrived at the 35yd length to build. Then I was on another military base in another state. There was a 35 yard pool there. So I asked the people at that pool if they had any idea why the military built pools at 35 yards long. Their response was "They did it specifically to discourage outside swimming organizations to ask if they could use the base pool to host swim meets."

    Dan

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