Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 21 to 33 of 33

Thread: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

  1. #21
    Participating Member Sbuk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Location
    Epsom
    Posts
    7

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Thank you everyone for the advice. I will get some more training done and then report on any progress.

  2. #22
    Very Active Member arthur's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Vancouver
    Posts
    370

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    To train for 100 fly you can do sets of 100s as 75 free/25 fly or 50 free/50 fly.

  3. #23
    Participating Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    10

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sbuk View Post
    Over the last weekend I competed in 50m and 100m LCM butterfly.

    I can swim the events, but I am just not able to keep my stroke together and remain at a reasonable speed (I would say fast, but even when sprinting it takes me about 36 secs per 50m SCM). I then deteriorate into 'survival' fly, where my hips drop and the priority is breathing on each stroke.

    On the 50m, I started to struggle over the last 10m, which lost me a few seconds. On the 100m, I went out a bit slower, but by the time I got to the second 50m I was really struggling. This meant it took me around 55 secs to do the second 50m.

    I've done a lot of fly in training recently, so I didn't expect it to be so tough.

    In contrast, I did the 100m freestyle, and kept my intensity near maximum throughout, so I'm not sure why fly would be so different?

    I do all of my training in a 25m pool, so do I really need to get to a 50m pool to get used to longcourse?

    Is part of the problem oxygen debt? I seem to have trouble breathing properly on fly, as I am normally rushing to get my head back down after a very short breath.

    I saw in the archives a topic about fly endurance. It suggested working on sets of 25m, then 50m, then 75m until doing 6x75m at a good pace. Another suggestion is doing 8x25m fly and decreasing the rest with each workout. My coach suggested doing 20x25m of 6 stroke fly followed by easy freestyle into the wall. That doesn't seem to be working for me, because it seems to be teaching me to swim 6 strokes then relax.

    Would you recommend one of the above training methods or another one?

    Is land training essential for conditioning to the level required, as most of my training is pool based right now?

    Sorry for the long topic, with lots of questions. Hopefully, I will find some help here or just pointed towards some articles/training methods that work.
    The 200 LCM Fly is one of if not the hardest race, throw in the LCM 400IM into that as well. I have found to swim a good 200 LCM Fly the first thing you have to build and have is aerobic capacity. I believe short rest freestyle sets can build that aerobic capacity. For example start out with with sets of 5 x 100 on the fastest interval you can make giving yourself no more than 5 seconds rest. then do a 50 or 100 ez and repeat. IF you can build up to 4 sets of 5 x100 on short rest you will start to build that capacity and endurance.

    2 guys I know pretty well that are in their 50's swimming great 200 Flys are David Sims and Steve Unruth. Both of these guys are incredible 200 and above freestylers. They have great endurance that really helps them when swimming a 200 Fly.

    The next thing I try to do is swim 50 Fly's on a minute in LCM at my 3rd or 4th 50 pace. For me that is holding 38/39. I like to do sets of 10 x 50 holding that pace. So pick an interval where you get 20 seconds rest and try to hold that pace. Start out with 4 x 50 Fly and see if you can over time build up to doing 10 x 50 Fly holding that pace with 20 seconds rest.

    Try do some fly kick sets with and without fins along with some core exercises 2-3 X per week.

    When your legs and core die in a 200 Fly ...you put too much pressure on the arms and thats when you see folks go vertical on the last 25 or 50. I also adapted a breath every stroke fly for the 200. At 61 I do need more air than I did 40 years ago! but see what works for you, Phelps pioneered the breath every stroke 2Fly and most world class swimmers now use that strategy

    Finally train like you race. This strategy has worked for me and I have become a reasonable 200 Flyer and 400IMer.

  4. #24
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    schaumburg, il - U S A
    Posts
    7,236

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    At 72 , I need more air now as well !!!!

  5. #25
    aka Elaine-iaK & Aqua Dog ElaineK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    4,264

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsauer View Post
    This strategy has worked for me and I have become a reasonable 200 Flyer and 400IMer.

    "Reasonable"? Being ranked #1 in both events makes you a LOT better than "reasonable," I think!
    Congratulations!! Thanks, too, for the great advice.

    Although my best events are the three breaststroke races, I also like competing in 200 fly (although I am very slow) and 400 IM. Although my shoulders can no longer withstand doing that much repetitive freestyle (4-5 sets of 5x100's), I can probably handle 2-3. How many times per week do you suggest doing the short rest freestyle sets you recommend? Also, how often do you recommend doing the fly swim sets?
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  6. #26
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Cedar Park, TX
    Posts
    754

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsauer View Post
    The 200 LCM Fly is one of if not the hardest race, throw in the LCM 400IM into that as well.
    2 guys I know pretty well that are in their 50's swimming great 200 Flys are David Sims and Steve Unruh. Both of these guys are incredible 200 and above freestylers. They have great endurance that really helps them when swimming a 200 Fly.
    jim,
    wow thanks for the callout and pairing. jeeez

    i have never done repeat 5x100s sets, but when i do 5x100s hard its a pretty hard set (anybody can send me a pm for exacts)
    however i have also done 5x200s....all the way up to 7x400s
    my longtime good friend - that you called out - 1980 Olympian in the 1500 Dave Sims and i have discussed training for the 200 fly.
    its a lot harder to do now as a masters. we both do shorter length swims to make sure our stroke doesnt fall apart. and yes it is tough. darn tough with all the plastic parts in my right shoulder. i used to train distance free just for my 200 fly when i was an elite.

    not everyone can do the same set(s) or even do it the same way. i certainly could not do the same set(s) more than 1 time i a week -> BORNING!!! gawd how i hate doing the same thing over n over that is just brain dead. i like variety
    maybe 25s one day
    50s another
    75s done 25fly/25free/25fly or switch those around
    i love 25free/25fly 50s
    we arent allowed to talk about hypoxic or i would mention my old mvn firestone 500 set
    i dont even do fly every workout i probably need to but rarely do
    the usms site had a nice article on shoulder strengthening. it was good. very important.
    oh and do NOT do something stupid like dips. i can show you the scars and explain the plastic from what damage dips can cause.

    my 1 piece of advice i tell everyone about racing the 200 fly....make butter envy you that 1st 100....be that smooth

  7. #27
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    8,042
    Blog Entries
    567

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by sunruh View Post
    we arent allowed to talk about hypoxic or i would mention my old mvn firestone 500 set
    Come on, don't leave us hangin'! You can tell us with the "don't try this at home" caveat.

  8. #28
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Cedar Park, TX
    Posts
    754

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    Come on, don't leave us hangin'! You can tell us with the "don't try this at home" caveat.
    i dont know what year it was started, but when i went to MVN in 1983 head coach Mark Schubert not only had a special set but a special hat he wore for it (bright green with yellow FIRESTONE)
    the set is called the FIRESTONE 500
    back then it was all or none. meaning either we all made it or none did and we started over.
    on the top (00) you kick against the wall for 40secs all out
    then its 25 underwater no breath and the intervaul is 40
    when you get to the wall you start kicking again all out
    then its 25 swim no breath and kick all out at the wall
    you have done a single 50 now and only breathing at the wall when kicking all out...repeat 10 times
    there was 1 time a girl (i wont say her name) didnt make it and Mark caught her. we were about 300ish in
    he stopped us and we started over. she cried the entire time but made it. she was a top 8 in the USA level elite.
    this may come across as a brag or boast, but the fact is in 1983 i was the elite National Age Group Champion
    in both the 200yd butterfly and the 200m butterfly. as i was the year before that and the year before that.

    sometimes on fridays - as recently as 2 weeks ago - i did this set again.

    nowadays not only does USA-S but even more so USMS does not condone this type of activity.
    Last edited by sunruh; February 7th, 2018 at 01:05 PM.

  9. #29
    Active Member JPEnge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Posts
    73
    Blog Entries
    102

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    To Steve -Click image for larger version. 

Name:	yNlQWRM.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	400.0 KB 
ID:	11476
    400 IMer in another life.

  10. #30
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    8,042
    Blog Entries
    567

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by sunruh View Post
    the set is called the FIRESTONE 500
    back then it was all or none. meaning either we all made it or none did and we started over.
    on the top (00) you kick against the wall for 40secs all out
    then its 25 underwater no breath and the intervaul is 40
    when you get to the wall you start kicking again all out
    then its 25 swim no breath and kick all out at the wall
    you have done a single 50 now and only breathing at the wall when kicking all out...repeat 10 times
    Love it!

    No chance I'd try it now. I think a single 50 of this would suffice.
    Last edited by knelson; February 7th, 2018 at 03:15 PM.

  11. #31
    Participating Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    10

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by ElaineK View Post

    "Reasonable"? Being ranked #1 in both events makes you a LOT better than "reasonable," I think!
    Congratulations!! Thanks, too, for the great advice.

    Although my best events are the three breaststroke races, I also like competing in 200 fly (although I am very slow) and 400 IM. Although my shoulders can no longer withstand doing that much repetitive freestyle (4-5 sets of 5x100's), I can probably handle 2-3. How many times per week do you suggest doing the short rest freestyle sets you recommend? Also, how often do you recommend doing the fly swim sets?

    I have a great coach ( 2 time Olympian and Gold medalist Whitney Hedgepeth) who sets the workouts and they vary however each day has a general approach. Her workouts have helped me build good aerobic capacity as back in the day I was strictly a 100 Flyer! Monday is freestyle mostly short rest intervals, Tuesday and Wednesday are Stroke/IM, We can do short sets of stroke along with freestyle mixed in, Thursday is a grab bag, what ever she feels like, Friday is FAST Friday and all quality, Saturday is Distance free and Sunday is Sprint sets. I make 6 workouts a week and yardage is somewhere around 23K to 28K per week. Whitney's main set everyday is 2500 to 3500 depending if it is free or stroke. so with with warm up and a small set at the end we go between 4K and 5.5K per 90 minute practice

    I try to do short rest 2x a week and try to swim Fly as much as possible when Coach lets us choose the stroke. The key is to build up whatever you think is doable and then slowly increase if your body will let you...as we age it gets harder and harder to do. I noticed a big difference between 57 and 60...and now going on 61. We have a pretty big team with 40-50 in 11 lanes every practice so I can adjust intervals as many lanes are going different intervals based on their skill set and also how they feel that day

  12. #32
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    8,042
    Blog Entries
    567

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsauer View Post
    I make 6 workouts a week and yardage is somewhere around 23K to 28K per week.
    Holy cow. I'm impressed!

  13. #33
    aka Elaine-iaK & Aqua Dog ElaineK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    4,264

    Re: How to improve my butterfly (esp. 200m and LCM)

    Quote Originally Posted by jimsauer View Post
    I have a great coach ( 2 time Olympian and Gold medalist Whitney Hedgepeth) who sets the workouts and they vary however each day has a general approach. Her workouts have helped me build good aerobic capacity as back in the day I was strictly a 100 Flyer! Monday is freestyle mostly short rest intervals, Tuesday and Wednesday are Stroke/IM, We can do short sets of stroke along with freestyle mixed in, Thursday is a grab bag, what ever she feels like, Friday is FAST Friday and all quality, Saturday is Distance free and Sunday is Sprint sets. I make 6 workouts a week and yardage is somewhere around 23K to 28K per week. Whitney's main set everyday is 2500 to 3500 depending if it is free or stroke. so with with warm up and a small set at the end we go between 4K and 5.5K per 90 minute practice

    I try to do short rest 2x a week and try to swim Fly as much as possible when Coach lets us choose the stroke. The key is to build up whatever you think is doable and then slowly increase if your body will let you...as we age it gets harder and harder to do. I noticed a big difference between 57 and 60...and now going on 61. We have a pretty big team with 40-50 in 11 lanes every practice so I can adjust intervals as many lanes are going different intervals based on their skill set and also how they feel that day

    Thanks for your reply, Jim; I appreciate the information. I'm 56, and I'm already noticing a big difference from a few years ago. (Of course, it didn't help that I had hip surgery for a labral tear and hip flexor release three years ago; and, shoulder bursitis and elbow tendinitis last year-- all non-swimming-related injuries to begin with, until they affected my swimming.)

    Although, I also swim six days per week, I have had to reduce my yardage. I used to swim 3,500-4,000 twice per week and 2,500-3,000 yards on the other days; however, I never go over 2,700 now. I also break up my hard days with an easy one in between.

    One of the factors adding to the fatigue is doing Theraband PT exercises, some weights, and yoga as part my dry-land to keep healthy. I would need to take your swimming schedule and chisel it down to my level-- far less than what you are doing.
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12

Similar Threads

  1. Training for 200m freestyle
    By SpeedoRocks in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: September 25th, 2013, 09:45 PM
  2. 6 months to improve 200m time
    By Kontusion in forum Workouts
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: December 5th, 2011, 04:30 PM
  3. Improve Butterfly without actually swimming it.
    By Green_Ghoul in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: October 13th, 2010, 09:58 PM
  4. 200m Freestyle
    By sandu in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: March 27th, 2005, 10:20 AM
  5. Training for butterfly, esp. 200m
    By LindsayNB in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: July 20th, 2004, 12:55 AM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •