Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 36

Thread: PEDs

  1. #1
    Participating Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Billings, MT
    Posts
    1

    PEDs

    There's been a bit of a kerfuffle on Slowtwitch.com (which is typical...bring out the pitchforks & torches) regarding the possible use of PEDs by USMS swimmers. Accusations, innuendo and prove it to the group are some of the opinions stated.

    https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S...etes_P6920600/

  2. #2
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    8,137
    Blog Entries
    567

    Re: PEDs

    I think it's naïve to think it doesn't happen, but I doubt it's prevalent.

  3. #3
    Very Active Member JPEnge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2017
    Location
    St Louis, MO
    Posts
    352
    Blog Entries
    376

    Re: PEDs

    Having been involved in several different sports at different levels as an adult, I'd be really wearing red-tinted glasses (or goggles as it were) if I were to say doping isn't happening in Masters swimming at some level.

    One sport I've competed in is Olympic-style weightlifting - it's all over the place there, at the obvious elite level down to garage weightlifters that just want to look better for Instagram. I also CrossFit - for a sport/activity that says it's all about health, there's a heck of a lot of vanity use there, not to mention people who have no concept of their actual athletic ability that think just some extra help will get them to the CF Games, and the ridiculous number of people who have to maintain appearances for their token supplement company sponsorship. Heck, I've known people highly suspected to be taking stuff to perform better in beer league softball.

    Me, I know I had my athletic glory days back in college. I see no reason to risk the side effects just for a little boost at a swim meet or whatever. Plus I am super gun-shy to risk any reaction with my UC or the drugs I take to manage that.
    400 IMer/200 backstroker in another life, now sprinter/breaststroker... Yeah, I don't know how that happened either!

  4. #4
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    573

    Re: PEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    I think it's naïve to think it doesn't happen, but I doubt it's prevalent.
    Not prevalent but I believe more common than many think. Most, I believe, as was pointed out on slowtwich forum, take it as anti-aging and therefore justify it. We have medicalized aging (everyone has "low T" at certain age).

    My wife is a former age group national champion in time trial. They test 1st and 2nd in every age group at cycling nationals. She would like to take hormone replacement but doesn't because if she were tested, she would be suspended.

    It seems we have this debate frequently and it goes nowhere. In my opinion, at the very least, everyone that breaks a national or world record needs to pee in a cup.

  5. #5
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    north carolina
    Posts
    180
    Blog Entries
    187

    Re: PEDs

    Funny, the article mentions that someone looked at all the people in Mesa and assumed many of them are juicing. But that never occurred to me. Am I just naïve? I can't say 100% it never happens, but it has never been my go-to excuse for why I don't win.

    And what if it's not prevalent? What if we institute testing and don't catch anyone? Will we stop testing? Or will half of us just say "we need to test even harder because we CAN JUST TELL that person X is cheating!"

    I think it's a can of worms that we don't really want to open.

    Also: there are plenty of 14-year-old girls out there faster than me. And let's just assume that I have fifty pounds of muscle on pretty much all of them. And lower body fat percentage. But they still can kick my ass. If someone beats you in a swimming race, they are probably a better swimmer than you. Accept it.

  6. #6
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    north carolina
    Posts
    180
    Blog Entries
    187

    Re: PEDs

    A bigger question for me is: why is the swimming discussion on slow twitch so lively compared to here? How do we get our community to be so engaged? I love talking about swimming on the forums. I don't want to go to slow twitch to do it. Just the name is depressing (for a sprinter)...

  7. #7
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Mulino,OR
    Posts
    4,562

    Re: PEDs

    There are a couple of people I've been suspicious of and I have heard rumors. I figure they may make you look younger, but they are health risks and the ultimate way to excell in Masters Swimming is to live a long time.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  8. #8
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    573

    Re: PEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by sickfish View Post
    Funny, the article mentions that someone looked at all the people in Mesa and assumed many of them are juicing. But that never occurred to me. Am I just naïve? I can't say 100% it never happens, but it has never been my go-to excuse for why I don't win.

    And what if it's not prevalent? What if we institute testing and don't catch anyone? Will we stop testing? Or will half of us just say "we need to test even harder because we CAN JUST TELL that person X is cheating!"

    I think it's a can of worms that we don't really want to open.

    Also: there are plenty of 14-year-old girls out there faster than me. And let's just assume that I have fifty pounds of muscle on pretty much all of them. And lower body fat percentage. But they still can kick my ass. If someone beats you in a swimming race, they are probably a better swimmer than you. Accept it.
    You make solid points most of which I agree with. Is there a threshold that would make you want to start testing?


    As examples, perhaps one person drops 10 seconds in a 200 from any recorded masters time to win a national championship from the “B” heat or someone else breaks 19 world records in a single year. 99% of the USMS world would say “wow” to the previous hypothetical scenarios. 1% would say “wow, but I would like some more information as well.” Both, either, or neither could be legitimately earned but nobody really knows for sure.


    I know a witness of at least possession in a highest level masters athlete and I know some that were previous elite youth that refuse to compete because of the “wild west” attitude in USMS. I am not necessarily advocating for testing (I used to be able to pee at will for these guys but now I believe with my gargantuan prostate and level of shyness, I would need about 2 hours and a lot of sweet talking to my unit to produce a few drops—I may be in the minority, but I stopped trying at a baseball game where 100s of strangers are urinating in the same trough!)


    I do not believe we have the stomach or the will for testing but for some, the threat of at least some random testing might be somewhat of a deterrent and for others a modicum of peace as they wonder whether there is fair competition.

  9. #9
    Very Active Member ourswimmer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Oakland, California
    Posts
    597

    Re: PEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt Dickson View Post
    Not prevalent but I believe more common than many think. Most, I believe, as was pointed out on slowtwich forum, take it as anti-aging and therefore justify it. We have medicalized aging (everyone has "low T" at certain age).
    I think this observation is probably accurate, and it illustrates why testing would be such a not-worth-it nightmare at our level. Many people would assert medical exemptions, some for more-or-less normal aging but others relating to real disorders. Volunteer(s) would have to evaluate those exemptions, not to mention supervising sample collection. Who on earth wants either job, and do we really want anyone who does want either job actually to do it?

    Quote Originally Posted by sickfish View Post
    Funny, the article mentions that someone looked at all the people in Mesa and assumed many of them are juicing.
    Because I agree with Kurt's observation, I find this statement especially funny. If I were on HRT, or maybe just a wee thyroid boost, I might not have gained 15 pounds around the middle in the last few years but I wouldn't look like a ripped figure competitor. I'd just look like the 35-year-old me. I definitely saw a lot of lean and muscular adults on deck in Mesa (some fast, some not) but nobody that I would have said based on looks alone, "can't be natural."

  10. #10
    Very Active Member waves101's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Battle Creek, MI
    Posts
    428

    Re: PEDs

    I've been to several Nationals and every time I go I think, wow, look at all these like minded swimmers who put their time in the water to be physically fit. Granted there are all shapes and sizes. But, never do I think someone is juicing. I know there are lots of people taking supplements (i.e. P2Life) and I guess if that's someone's idea of juicing, I'd be guilty. Naturally, if your into fitness/working out/swimming, inherently, your probably eating better and taking care of yourself more. Thus, hopefully, we all do look better than our couch potato counterparts. But, the hardcore full PEDs, I believe, are extremely few and far between. What I find is great competition and friendly competitors. I look forward to more great Nationals and I won't be worried one ounce that someone else might be juicing. I'll just be focused on how I'm doing against the clock and hopefully I can find my way into the Top 10. Some years I do, some I don't. This seems to be an injury year thus I did not make Mesa. But, I so wanted to be there.

  11. #11
    aka Elaine-iaK & Aqua Dog ElaineK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    4,574

    Re: PEDs

    I am so far down in the rankings (+/- top 40% in my best event), that I don't give any thought to women in my age group who are (or may be) taking PED's. The way I figure it is that it will come back to bite them in the at some point in their lives. Personally, it doesn't affect me.

    What DOES bother me though is that a swimmer taking PED's (most likely) affects the rankings of their closest competition. If my buddy King Frog, for example, lost out on a new 200 meter breaststroke World Record due to a cheater, I would be
    !!!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  12. #12
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Beaverton, Oregon
    Posts
    397

    Re: PEDs

    Well, of course there are USMS members using PEDs. It is called "getting older" meds like Testosterone for low T, statins for high cholesterol, beta blockers for heart issues, Pradaxa to prevent blood clots, etc.

    These are PEDs because, without them, there might be no performance to improve ....

    What was performance enhancing when we were younger is now called "keep us alive."

  13. #13
    aka Elaine-iaK & Aqua Dog ElaineK's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    4,574

    Re: PEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Well, of course there are USMS members using PEDs. It is called "getting older" meds like Testosterone for low T, statins for high cholesterol, beta blockers for heart issues, Pradaxa to prevent blood clots, etc.

    These are PEDs because, without them, there might be no performance to improve ....

    What was performance enhancing when we were younger is now called "keep us alive."

    Guilty as charge; however, it sure doesn't show up in my race times!
    http://ElaineiaKsTravels.wordpress.com

    ~ Believing in your dreams can be far more rewarding than living by your limitations ~Karla Peterson

  14. #14
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    8,137
    Blog Entries
    567

    Re: PEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by Windrath View Post
    Well, of course there are USMS members using PEDs. It is called "getting older" meds like Testosterone for low T, statins for high cholesterol, beta blockers for heart issues, Pradaxa to prevent blood clots, etc.
    I wouldn't group "low T" in with the rest of these.

  15. #15
    Active Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    63

    Re: PEDs

    I am about to turn 61. I consider that I am improving if my times stay the same, as muscle mass drops off after 40 and preciptiously from 60-65. I take a bunch of meds for mild hypertension, type-II diabetes (although swimming has pretty much put my blood sugar numbers back in the high normal range...5.5-ish), and exercise-induced asthma. I seriously doubt any of these subtract seconds from my times...maybe hundredths, if I'm lucky.

    One thing I'd add is that there are now so many legal supplements that enhance performance...I'm thinking of NO boosters like carnitine, arginine, ornithine...even Viagra and Cialis! And caffeine is performance enhancing. Protein powders, of course. None of these can take the place of training, however. I think they all might give an edge to the person who is already working very hard, but they won't help pikers.

    Most importantly, I don't think ANY of these come close to having the same effect as HGH (for low-T or otherwise) or worse, anabolic steroids. Perhaps we should test for those just those things, but only at big meets and following record swims. Not sure what kind of penalties you'd dole out if someone failed. That could definitely be a "can of worms."

  16. #16
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    573

    Re: PEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by knelson View Post
    I wouldn't group "low T" in with the rest of these.
    Thank you. True hypogonadism is extremely rare and so if you are taking testosterone and competing, you are most likely, cheating.

  17. #17
    Very Active Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Beaverton, Oregon
    Posts
    397

    Re: PEDs

    Not sure why you would not include testosterone if you read about the benefits to energy levels and it used to be used by women and cyclists as a PED - before the current batch of designer PEDs. I had mine measured a few years back. It came back at around 500 (whatever the units were) and the normal range is 500-1500 for my age. So, if 500 is my "natural" level and the range is up to 1500, taking enough to increase my T might result in a substantial increase in performance without tripping the max level. Granted, not anything like HGH, but could be significant.

    And, another one I have personal experience with is taking Iron. I have been chronically anemic for the past 15 yrs (no medical reason has been found). if I don't take iron, my hemoglobin drops to about 80% of the accepted minimum and I can't swim hard (feels like having a heart attack after 75 yards or being at 12,000' elevation). if I take iron and my hemoglobin goes to the middle of the acceptable range, I am good to go like when I was younger. For me, taking iron is like a transfusion of high hemoglobin blood (which Lochte and others have been sanctioned for).

    So, these may seem like minor things, but they are very significant enhancements.

    It is a slippery slope as we get older. We probably can all agree that HGH (like used by Cenegenics) is an obvious PED. But, the rest - not so easy to see the black/white....

  18. #18
    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    8,137
    Blog Entries
    567

    Re: PEDs

    I absolutely agree that testosterone is a PED. What I don't agree with is that it should be lumped in with other drugs that are used to treat very common and health-threatening conditions like statins and beta blockers.

  19. #19
    Very Active Member gull's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Austin, Texas
    Posts
    2,634
    Blog Entries
    28

    Re: PEDs

    The term "Low T" was coined by Solvay Pharmaceuticals to market AndroGel, and it was a tremendous success.

    A few years ago I petitioned USMS leadership to issue a simple statement discouraging the use of performance enhancing drugs, knowing that a formal drug testing program would never be instituted due to a lack of support within the organization. I was rebuffed.
    Last edited by gull; May 23rd, 2019 at 01:27 PM.

  20. #20
    Very Active Member Kurt Dickson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    AZ
    Posts
    573

    Re: PEDs

    Quote Originally Posted by gull View Post
    The term "Low T" was coined by Solvay Pharmaceuticals to market AndroGel, and it was a tremendous success.
    Like everything in the pharmaceutical industry: drugs created in search of a non-existent disease.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Poll - Swimming/Olympics/PEDs
    By elise526 in forum General Swimming-Related Discussions
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: August 5th, 2008, 02:32 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •