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Thread: Nationals championship non D Q question

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    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Nationals championship non D Q question

    The winner of the 200 men's breast did an obvious full dolphin kick at the finish of the race and the tv commentators said nothing!!
    If such a kick is seen and not called here - how was Lilly dq'ed for non simultaneous hand touch after video review???

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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    When youíre officiating breaststroke, youíre trained to focus your attention on the swimmerís hands as they come in to ensure a simultaneous touch, then to check the rest of their body. Knowing that the officials are going to be looking at your upper body means that the final glide into the wall is one of the safest moments to execute an illegal dolphin kick if youíre looking for a moment to pull some sneaky business.

    Iím not sure if Reeceís downward kick came before or just after the touch. It was very very close. If it was actually illegal, I hope it was unintentional.

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    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    As I replied on the FINA thread, it looked legal to me, no downward dolphin kick.
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Quote Originally Posted by orca1946 View Post
    ... how was Lilly dq'ed for non simultaneous hand touch after video review???
    The non-simultaneous had touch is a flawed rule. What defines "simultaneous"? There will *always* be an instant in time when one hand is touching the wall and the other is not. It is technically impossible for the touch to be "simultaneous". The rule should be that at some point during the turn both hands must be on the wall at. Otherwise, get me a camera that takes sequential frames rapidly enough and I can always find a still showing one hand on the wall and one not. Have someone you want DQ'ed? Get me my camera I'll prove they were cheating.

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    Very Active Member Mark Usher's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Quote Originally Posted by Karl_S View Post
    The non-simultaneous had touch is a flawed rule. What defines "simultaneous"? There will *always* be an instant in time when one hand is touching the wall and the other is not. It is technically impossible for the touch to be "simultaneous". The rule should be that at some point during the turn both hands must be on the wall at. Otherwise, get me a camera that takes sequential frames rapidly enough and I can always find a still showing one hand on the wall and one not. Have someone you want DQ'ed? Get me my camera I'll prove they were cheating.
    That might work for a turn, but what about at the finish, when the first hand stops the time at the touchpad?

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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Usher View Post
    That might work for a turn, but what about at the finish, when the first hand stops the time at the touchpad?
    Interesting point. Two touchpads that have to be pressed within 0.x seconds of each other? That sounds cumbersome!

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    Very Active Member habu987's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    So, the whole non-simultaneous touch thing is something that *could* be automatically detected by touch pads, but obviously currently isn't. There's a whole policy aspect that FINA/governing bodies would have to sort out. The technology exists, it just isn't implemented right now. To the best of my knowledge, touch pads used today aren't significantly different than the touch pads used decades ago.

    Some of the policy issues that would have to be figured out:
    1)How many points of contact would be required to determine a two hand touch?
    2)What margin of error is allowed for it to be considered a simultaneous touch?
    3)How much distance must be between the different points of contact to be considered a two hand touch?
    4)What if a swimmer only touches one hand on the pad and one hand on the wall?
    5)How much force is required for each point of contact to be considered a legal touch?

    There are more policy issues that would need to be resolved, but off the top of my head those are the 5 main ones.

    From a technology standpoint, it's feasible to implement touch detection with that level of accuracy, it's just a matter of the governing bodies providing the appropriate detection parameters for the software.

    Shameless self plug here--my company will be coming out with touch pads and timing system gear in the next couple of years, and we're going to incorporate the hardware required for that level of touch detection, so if the governing bodies ever decide to provide the policy for automated touch detection, we can implement it via software.

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    Very Active Member Mark Usher's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Quote Originally Posted by habu987 View Post
    So, the whole non-simultaneous touch thing is something that *could* be automatically detected by touch pads, but obviously currently isn't. There's a whole policy aspect that FINA/governing bodies would have to sort out. The technology exists, it just isn't implemented right now. To the best of my knowledge, touch pads used today aren't significantly different than the touch pads used decades ago.

    Some of the policy issues that would have to be figured out:
    1)How many points of contact would be required to determine a two hand touch?
    2)What margin of error is allowed for it to be considered a simultaneous touch?
    3)How much distance must be between the different points of contact to be considered a two hand touch?
    4)What if a swimmer only touches one hand on the pad and one hand on the wall?
    5)How much force is required for each point of contact to be considered a legal touch?

    There are more policy issues that would need to be resolved, but off the top of my head those are the 5 main ones.

    From a technology standpoint, it's feasible to implement touch detection with that level of accuracy, it's just a matter of the governing bodies providing the appropriate detection parameters for the software.

    Shameless self plug here--my company will be coming out with touch pads and timing system gear in the next couple of years, and we're going to incorporate the hardware required for that level of touch detection, so if the governing bodies ever decide to provide the policy for automated touch detection, we can implement it via software.
    I had an interesting conversation about touchpads with Matt Murphy of Omega in Bloomington. The current Omega timing software can track and sort out multiple touches during a race. This occurs frequently during distance freestyle events when the lap counters inadvertently hit the pads with the count boards. They basically set up a timing "window" in the software when the actual swimmers' touches normally would occur and ignore anything else. I suppose in theory they could do the same thing looking for two hand touches within a more narrow window.
    As an official I'm a bit biased, but I still think the best solution is well-trained, experienced officials on deck.

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    Very Active Member habu987's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Usher View Post
    I had an interesting conversation about touchpads with Matt Murphy of Omega in Bloomington. The current Omega timing software can track and sort out multiple touches during a race. This occurs frequently during distance freestyle events when the lap counters inadvertently hit the pads with the count boards. They basically set up a timing "window" in the software when the actual swimmers' touches normally would occur and ignore anything else. I suppose in theory they could do the same thing looking for two hand touches within a more narrow window.
    As an official I'm a bit biased, but I still think the best solution is well-trained, experienced officials on deck.
    Yeah, but to have the timing system automatically adjudicate touches, it would need to be much more granular than what they do right now. For example, right now most timing systems set up for flyover starts ignore any touch pad touches within a margin of the start of the heat, I think the standard is something like 15 seconds from my discussions with timing officials over the years here in the Potomac Valley, though that might be different in other places.

    The policy update would need to determine how a touch is adjudicated if, say, there are 8 points of contact at the finish and there's .11 between the first and last point of contact. To my knowledge current timing systems don't have the level of detail necessary to adjudicate that specificity.

    Since the tech exists, I'm a big proponent of incorporating into timing systems, but it would take a lot of policy work to work out the specific details for implementation.

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    Moderator Rob Copeland's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Usher View Post
    They basically set up a timing "window" in the software when the actual swimmers' touches normally would occur and ignore anything else. I suppose in theory they could do the same thing looking for two hand touches within a more narrow window.
    Not really. The touchpad is just a pressure switch. Apply pressure, close a switch, send a signal to the timing console. The tape switches in Omega pads run the width of the pad, so closing the switch with 1 hand or 2 hands sends the exact same signal to the console. Colorado and Daktronics pads donít rely on tape switches but the results are basically the same. Apply pressure, close a circuit, send a signal to the timing console. The only, current, timing technology that could be used is the integrated timing camera systems. Otherwise it would require video replay officials.

    As an official I'm a bit biased, but I still think the best solution is well-trained, experienced officials on deck.
    I agree!

    Quote Originally Posted by habu987 View Post
    Shameless self plug here--my company will be coming out with touch pads and timing system gear in the next couple of years, and we're going to incorporate the hardware required for that level of touch detection, so if the governing bodies ever decide to provide the policy for automated touch detection, we can implement it via software.
    In my spare time I run a meet timing service (currently working with Colorado Timing, Omega and Daktronics). Iíd be interested hearing more about what you are working on. PM me?
    The opinions expressed in the above post are mine and not those of U.S. Masters Swimming.

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    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Will the cost of the "very tech" touch pads put them out of range for most meets other than Nationals?

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    Very Active Member habu987's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Quote Originally Posted by orca1946 View Post
    Will the cost of the "very tech" touch pads put them out of range for most meets other than Nationals?
    We're waaaay too early in the design process to have anything close to a firm retail price (we've done a technical feasibility study, but haven't started getting into the nuts and bolts of how to build 'em), but so far it's looking like we'll be able to come in somewhere in the general vicinity of existing retail prices for touch pads, if not below those prices. We're also considering coming to market with two different models of touch pads, one that'll be cheaper with a lower resolution sensor package and a full priced one with a higher resolution sensor package, but our target price point is to be no more expensive than existing touch pads on the market. Again, that's our goal, but we haven't done any of the nitty gritty designing yet, so it would be too premature for me to name price ranges with any degree of certainty. We're hoping to have the initial design and prototype done next year so we can get an idea of retail pricing and functionality.

    As an aside, the profit margins on swimming hardware these days is through the roof, from blocks, to pace clocks, to timing systems, and everything in between... It's amazing what having an oligopoly does to retail pricing!

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    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Keep us updated on progress you make.

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    Very Active Member habu987's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    Quote Originally Posted by orca1946 View Post
    Keep us updated on progress you make.
    Of course! Feel free to check out our live product roadmap here, we've got a bunch of stuff besides timing systems that we've got lined up to release over the next 3-5 years: https://blacklineswim.co/pages/our-product-roadmap

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    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Nationals championship non D Q question

    I will forward this to our swim coach for her to look at. Thanx

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