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Thread: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

  1. #21
    Very Active Member JPEnge's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    No, Spitz definitely did flip turns.

    I do think you're being fairly defeatist... you've been working on turns for, what, a couple months now? That's not a long time for an adult to pick up a new skill that requires nee proprioception like a flip turn.

  2. #22
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Ok. Thanks. It's just that....after months of exciting leaps in swimming, I suddenly feel like I have stalled, or gone backwards. This feeling of exhaustion/despair is depressing.
    M-50m, T-200m, W-800m, T-25m, F-100m, S-400m, S-1600m.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m FS/SC by the end of 2019.

  3. #23
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Perhaps it will be a good idea to flip at the deep-end and open-turn at the shallow-end for a while?!!
    M-50m, T-200m, W-800m, T-25m, F-100m, S-400m, S-1600m.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m FS/SC by the end of 2019.

  4. #24
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skuj View Post
    Ok. Thanks. It's just that....after months of exciting leaps in swimming, I suddenly feel like I have stalled, or gone backwards. This feeling of exhaustion/despair is depressing.
    That feeling of exhaustion/depression is a serious sign of overtraining. I'm not joking.

  5. #25
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by MickYoung View Post
    That feeling of exhaustion/depression is a serious sign of overtraining. I'm not joking.
    Hey, I feel that way after my first rep of every butterly set!

  6. #26
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    We have all had times where we are "stuck" in our training or in new skills. give time and changes to any skill we learn or relearn.

  7. #27
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Yes, I'll stick with this. I'll manage it better. Trying flipturns every 50m (deep-end) is something that I will concentrate on today.

    I really don't think I can be accused of overtraining. I typically swim 4-5x per week, 6-8km total per week.
    M-50m, T-200m, W-800m, T-25m, F-100m, S-400m, S-1600m.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m FS/SC by the end of 2019.

  8. #28
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skuj View Post
    Yes, I'll stick with this. I'll manage it better. Trying flipturns every 50m (deep-end) is something that I will concentrate on today.

    I really don't think I can be accused of overtraining. I typically swim 4-5x per week, 6-8km total per week.
    Honestly, I have no idea if you've overtraining or not. I didn't mean to accuse.

    Your main swimming goal seems like a reasonable one to me, given your stated times but if you're 19, they aren't very aggressive and if you are 90, they are likely way too much. So "7 k a week" by itself doesn't mean much either way.

    I'm 66. If I ramped up from, say, a mile a week to 6-8 km per week over 3 months? That would be overtraining. For a 30 year old? Probably not.

    Where I'm coming from:
    In my 50's, I discovered that training days-in-a-row hindered rather than helped a ramp-up for an open water swim. I felt lazy doing 3 days a week instead of 4 or 5, but I couldn't argue with the results. The same might not be true for a 20-something.

    When I turned 60, I blew out a shoulder doing 50's as hard as possible and I'm just getting back from that overtraining injury.

    In 2015, I read a SI article on Phelps that said he agreed to come back for 2016 only if his coach let him train 50K a week instead of 80k. I became fascinated (and still am) with the idea that overtraining might be endemic in swimming. I took Phelp's 5 golds and a silver in 2016 as an affirmation for that idea.

    But I've never done serious training so this is all theoretical to me.

  9. #29
    Very Active Member JPEnge's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    This is totally off-topic at this point, but here's my two cents on the overtraining thing.

    On one hand, I think old-school, tons of yardage and beatdown into shave and taper training cycles were a breeding ground for overtraining. I think good modern coaches have largely realized this and adapted - you see more and more folks that can put together good swims across the season and year and not just once a season for a big shave and taper is good evidence of this. I think the renewed focus you see from good modern coaches on dryland/power/GPP and technique work even for elite swimmers is more proof of the idea that varied stimuli (and general physical robustness) is better than just a beatdown in the pool twice a day, every day.

    On the other hand, I think the diagnosis of "overtraining" is used way too much. Most people can take a lot more work volume than they think they can, especially if they aren't already conditioned to ignore fatigue signs.

    Kind of back on subject a little, I wouldn't think that Skuj is overtrained. Just maybe a little overzealous in expectations of improvement curve. As I said, it's really hard for an adult with a fully formed, mature nervous system to pick up different physical skills with such a different proprioceptive (is that even a word?) world as swimming.
    400 IMer/200 backstroker in another life, now sprinter/breaststroker... Yeah, I don't know how that happened either!

  10. #30
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    I appreciate this slight diversion on overtraining - thanks MickYoung and JPEnge for your thoughts.

    For the record I am 57, and I started swimming on Feb 21st, 2019.

    Now.....here's a little story:

    I had a FANTASTIC session today. I felt WONDERFUL. Most of my flip-turns were done reasonably well. I'm thrilled. So what happened? I did flip-turns only at the deep-end, and open turns at the shallow-end.

    I cannot count how many times I have read that, once you figure out how to do a flip-turn, "DO IT ALWAYS"...ie at every wall, in every swim.

    I think that advice is wrong for some/many people. Flip-turns every 25m clearly put me over the red-line, even on a warmup swim. It makes a huge difference if I try it every 50m at this time.

    In the future I will introduce more and more swimming where I'm trying it every 25m, but for now, I'm obviously not ready for that.

    As an aside, my easy/cooldown 400m today was 7:15....which was race-pace for 400m back in March.
    M-50m, T-200m, W-800m, T-25m, F-100m, S-400m, S-1600m.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m FS/SC by the end of 2019.

  11. #31
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skuj View Post
    Ok. Thanks. It's just that....after months of exciting leaps in swimming, I suddenly feel like I have stalled, or gone backwards. This feeling of exhaustion/despair is depressing.
    The sudden plateau in performance just means you’re graduating to the next level of performance, as well as conditioning, and just need to figure out what’s holding ya back . It is definitely nothing to get discouraged about man. Study the basics of stroke fundamentals. Sometimes video can help, quite a lot

  12. #32
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    The sudden plateau in performance just means you’re graduating to the next level of performance, as well as conditioning, and just need to figure out what’s holding ya back . It is definitely nothing to get discouraged about man. Study the basics of stroke fundamentals. Sometimes video can help, quite a lot
    Indeed, I believe that every session, even ones that go badly, is a penny into the piggie-bank. I solved some problems today. Thanks.
    M-50m, T-200m, W-800m, T-25m, F-100m, S-400m, S-1600m.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m FS/SC by the end of 2019.

  13. #33
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    O K flip at the deep end for now.

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