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Thread: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

  1. #21
    Very Active Member JPEnge's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    No, Spitz definitely did flip turns.

    I do think you're being fairly defeatist... you've been working on turns for, what, a couple months now? That's not a long time for an adult to pick up a new skill that requires nee proprioception like a flip turn.

  2. #22
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Ok. Thanks. It's just that....after months of exciting leaps in swimming, I suddenly feel like I have stalled, or gone backwards. This feeling of exhaustion/despair is depressing.
    Current PRs: 25m-:17.0/50m-:37.5/100m-1:21.5/200m-2:57.0/400m-6:15/800m-12:56/1600m-26:37.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m by the end of 2019.

  3. #23
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Perhaps it will be a good idea to flip at the deep-end and open-turn at the shallow-end for a while?!!
    Current PRs: 25m-:17.0/50m-:37.5/100m-1:21.5/200m-2:57.0/400m-6:15/800m-12:56/1600m-26:37.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m by the end of 2019.

  4. #24
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skuj View Post
    Ok. Thanks. It's just that....after months of exciting leaps in swimming, I suddenly feel like I have stalled, or gone backwards. This feeling of exhaustion/despair is depressing.
    That feeling of exhaustion/depression is a serious sign of overtraining. I'm not joking.

  5. #25
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by MickYoung View Post
    That feeling of exhaustion/depression is a serious sign of overtraining. I'm not joking.
    Hey, I feel that way after my first rep of every butterly set!

  6. #26
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    We have all had times where we are "stuck" in our training or in new skills. give time and changes to any skill we learn or relearn.

  7. #27
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Yes, I'll stick with this. I'll manage it better. Trying flipturns every 50m (deep-end) is something that I will concentrate on today.

    I really don't think I can be accused of overtraining. I typically swim 4-5x per week, 6-8km total per week.
    Current PRs: 25m-:17.0/50m-:37.5/100m-1:21.5/200m-2:57.0/400m-6:15/800m-12:56/1600m-26:37.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m by the end of 2019.

  8. #28
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skuj View Post
    Yes, I'll stick with this. I'll manage it better. Trying flipturns every 50m (deep-end) is something that I will concentrate on today.

    I really don't think I can be accused of overtraining. I typically swim 4-5x per week, 6-8km total per week.
    Honestly, I have no idea if you've overtraining or not. I didn't mean to accuse.

    Your main swimming goal seems like a reasonable one to me, given your stated times but if you're 19, they aren't very aggressive and if you are 90, they are likely way too much. So "7 k a week" by itself doesn't mean much either way.

    I'm 66. If I ramped up from, say, a mile a week to 6-8 km per week over 3 months? That would be overtraining. For a 30 year old? Probably not.

    Where I'm coming from:
    In my 50's, I discovered that training days-in-a-row hindered rather than helped a ramp-up for an open water swim. I felt lazy doing 3 days a week instead of 4 or 5, but I couldn't argue with the results. The same might not be true for a 20-something.

    When I turned 60, I blew out a shoulder doing 50's as hard as possible and I'm just getting back from that overtraining injury.

    In 2015, I read a SI article on Phelps that said he agreed to come back for 2016 only if his coach let him train 50K a week instead of 80k. I became fascinated (and still am) with the idea that overtraining might be endemic in swimming. I took Phelp's 5 golds and a silver in 2016 as an affirmation for that idea.

    But I've never done serious training so this is all theoretical to me.

  9. #29
    Very Active Member JPEnge's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    This is totally off-topic at this point, but here's my two cents on the overtraining thing.

    On one hand, I think old-school, tons of yardage and beatdown into shave and taper training cycles were a breeding ground for overtraining. I think good modern coaches have largely realized this and adapted - you see more and more folks that can put together good swims across the season and year and not just once a season for a big shave and taper is good evidence of this. I think the renewed focus you see from good modern coaches on dryland/power/GPP and technique work even for elite swimmers is more proof of the idea that varied stimuli (and general physical robustness) is better than just a beatdown in the pool twice a day, every day.

    On the other hand, I think the diagnosis of "overtraining" is used way too much. Most people can take a lot more work volume than they think they can, especially if they aren't already conditioned to ignore fatigue signs.

    Kind of back on subject a little, I wouldn't think that Skuj is overtrained. Just maybe a little overzealous in expectations of improvement curve. As I said, it's really hard for an adult with a fully formed, mature nervous system to pick up different physical skills with such a different proprioceptive (is that even a word?) world as swimming.
    400 IMer/200 backstroker in another life, now sprinter/breaststroker... Yeah, I don't know how that happened either!

  10. #30
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    I appreciate this slight diversion on overtraining - thanks MickYoung and JPEnge for your thoughts.

    For the record I am 57, and I started swimming on Feb 21st, 2019.

    Now.....here's a little story:

    I had a FANTASTIC session today. I felt WONDERFUL. Most of my flip-turns were done reasonably well. I'm thrilled. So what happened? I did flip-turns only at the deep-end, and open turns at the shallow-end.

    I cannot count how many times I have read that, once you figure out how to do a flip-turn, "DO IT ALWAYS"...ie at every wall, in every swim.

    I think that advice is wrong for some/many people. Flip-turns every 25m clearly put me over the red-line, even on a warmup swim. It makes a huge difference if I try it every 50m at this time.

    In the future I will introduce more and more swimming where I'm trying it every 25m, but for now, I'm obviously not ready for that.

    As an aside, my easy/cooldown 400m today was 7:15....which was race-pace for 400m back in March.
    Current PRs: 25m-:17.0/50m-:37.5/100m-1:21.5/200m-2:57.0/400m-6:15/800m-12:56/1600m-26:37.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m by the end of 2019.

  11. #31
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by Skuj View Post
    Ok. Thanks. It's just that....after months of exciting leaps in swimming, I suddenly feel like I have stalled, or gone backwards. This feeling of exhaustion/despair is depressing.
    The sudden plateau in performance just means youíre graduating to the next level of performance, as well as conditioning, and just need to figure out whatís holding ya back . It is definitely nothing to get discouraged about man. Study the basics of stroke fundamentals. Sometimes video can help, quite a lot

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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    The sudden plateau in performance just means youíre graduating to the next level of performance, as well as conditioning, and just need to figure out whatís holding ya back . It is definitely nothing to get discouraged about man. Study the basics of stroke fundamentals. Sometimes video can help, quite a lot
    Indeed, I believe that every session, even ones that go badly, is a penny into the piggie-bank. I solved some problems today. Thanks.
    Current PRs: 25m-:17.0/50m-:37.5/100m-1:21.5/200m-2:57.0/400m-6:15/800m-12:56/1600m-26:37.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m by the end of 2019.

  13. #33
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    O K flip at the deep end for now.

  14. #34
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    So, I have been flipping only at the deep-end on warm-ups and cool-downs. I'm getting better!! But this will take a long time.

    One thing that I noticed: When I'm cooling down, after a chunk of swimming, my mid-lower back gets stiff, and flip-turns become much more difficult than they did in the warmup.

    Do any of you real swimmers experience this? Is it just a fatigue thing?
    Current PRs: 25m-:17.0/50m-:37.5/100m-1:21.5/200m-2:57.0/400m-6:15/800m-12:56/1600m-26:37.

    My main swimming goal: Sub6min 400m by the end of 2019.

  15. #35
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    I have much the same issues and here are a few thoughts regarding the turns and the lower back. As you tire your breathing becomes gulps of air rather than deep breaths. The key is preparation. You can't breath deeply without getting rid of the old air first. Developing a good exhale is critical. Humming while exhaling and even giving a "tennis player grunt" underwater may help you to make this a habit. Plan your breaths going into the turn just like you plan your distance from the wall to flip. If you can develop the ability to take an extra breath on your off arm going into the wall it will help. I have had good success with this especially at slower speed in a 200 or 500 race. Once again concentrate on the exhale as much as you do on the inhale.

    The lower back issue is all from poor flip turn form as you tire and struggle to get it over with to speed up your next breath. I would guess you are coming into the wall and almost stopping than throwing your legs over your head. This can cause the pain in your lower back. Flip turns are actually a whole body thing starting with the upper body going down and than followed by the lower body. Bending your knees to a 45 degree angle in the air may also help rather than a 180 pike turn. Perhaps another forumite could give a better description than I have. But your running out of air at the turn defiantly contributes to your lower back issues. So I agree with your using an open turn to sort of reset when you get into this situation.

  16. #36
    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    Excellent advices above!

    Using the flip turn (as well as being able to kick fast) will probably help you swim faster 200ís, 100ís and 50ís freestyles. The flipping O2 bottleneck during distance freestyle is very common (and seems to more so effect swimmers whoíve learned to swim as adults.) Iíve been swimming over 10 years and I still feel the punishment of flip turning while swimming over 200. But the efficiency outweighs the break in breathing rhythm.

    Keep working on flip turns, in the long run they typically are better. And too many open turns might overwork rotator cuff muscles

    When my lower back goes out I canít even execute a flip turn at first

  17. #37
    Active Member VintageDirt's Avatar
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    Re: Are flipturns for everyone? (Oxygen!!!)

    I don't do them. I used to worry about it. Even tried to force myself to do them for 1 week. It made me hate swimming so I stopped doing them and stopped worrying about it. I feel much better. In my younger days (mid 1970s) I hated them too. Swam a lot of punishment sets for doing open turns in practice. Finally even the coach gave up, since I was a breaststroker anyway, with the stipulation that I did breast stroke pullouts on all turns. As much as that sucked, still better than flipturns!

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