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Thread: A question about technique vs strength

  1. #21
    Active Member smiley92407's Avatar
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Technique first and always. You will be faster than those with poor technique who muscle their way through the water. Good technique will help you avoid injuries. By having good technique it will be easier to improve.
    Every Day Spent Above Ground Is A Good Day!

  2. #22
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by Redbird Alum View Post
    . "you may not win with the swim, but you sure can lose with a bad one!"
    [NOTE: I posted some numbers about this, but they turned out to be incorrect - more accurate numbers are below.]

    They say that 52.537% of all statistics quoted are made up on the spot.
    Last edited by MickYoung; October 25th, 2019 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Truth Value

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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by MickYoung View Post
    At one point there had been 19 deaths during triathlons (not awful considering how many triathlons there were). 18 had happened during the swimming portion of the events. So, yeah, you can lose big-time with the swimming.
    OMG

  4. #24
    Very Active Member ForceDJ's Avatar
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    During my Navy career I frequently held the collateral duty of my command/department's fitness coordinator. The main part of that duty is to administer the periodic Physical Readiness Test (PRT). The physical portion(s) of the test are (or were when I was in) push-up, sit-ups, and choice of either a 1.5 mile run, or a 500 yd/450m swim. At one duty station there were a couple guys in my department that were generally in very good physical condition. They were 'muscle heads'...concentrated on lifting weights. But they always passed the PRT with above average scores doing the 1.5 mile run. But one test cycle they decided they were going to do the swim instead. They could "swim" but weren't swimmers. They actually said to me that they figured they could "muscle their way through the 500 yards." They wanted to prove something. I tried to talk them out of it. They had too much muscle to keep themselves afloat with their lack of technique. I couldn't get through to them. So, they waited until the last day of the test cycle. They showed up at the pool ready to swim. After just one lap it was OBVIOUS they weren't going to make the 500 yards in the allotted time...if they were going to finish at all (without drowning). Of course they failed. I, as the fitness coordinator, authorized one additional test...for the 1.5 mile run...just for these to knuckleheads...so that I wouldn't end up with two otherwise physically fit sailors on the remedial fitness program.

    Dan

  5. #25
    Very Active Member orca1946's Avatar
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    So true! In H S gyn class, almost all of my swimmers will lap the football and wrestlers in the water after ridicule from them as skinny girls!

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    Very Active Member __steve__'s Avatar
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by ForceDJ View Post
    choice of either a 1.5 mile run, or a 500 yd/450m swim.
    being in the AFR I somewhat envy the Navy’s fitness test option to swim instead of running. In my age group (50 -54) it takes 10.5 min 1.5 mile run to get a perfect score on the aerobic part (I did that once but it was not worth the effort and trauma). The navy standard for perfect score with a swim is about *8 min for a 500m swim.

    edited for accuracy: *500 yds (or 450m) in 7:15 (or 7:05)
    Last edited by __steve__; November 10th, 2019 at 09:46 PM.

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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by ForceDJ View Post
    During my Navy career I frequently held the collateral duty of my command/department's fitness coordinator. The main part of that duty is to administer the periodic Physical Readiness Test (PRT). The physical portion(s) of the test are (or were when I was in) push-up, sit-ups, and choice of either a 1.5 mile run, or a 500 yd/450m swim. At one duty station there were a couple guys in my department that were generally in very good physical condition. They were 'muscle heads'...concentrated on lifting weights. But they always passed the PRT with above average scores doing the 1.5 mile run. But one test cycle they decided they were going to do the swim instead. They could "swim" but weren't swimmers. They actually said to me that they figured they could "muscle their way through the 500 yards." They wanted to prove something. I tried to talk them out of it. They had too much muscle to keep themselves afloat with their lack of technique. I couldn't get through to them. So, they waited until the last day of the test cycle. They showed up at the pool ready to swim. After just one lap it was OBVIOUS they weren't going to make the 500 yards in the allotted time...if they were going to finish at all (without drowning). Of course they failed. I, as the fitness coordinator, authorized one additional test...for the 1.5 mile run...just for these to knuckleheads...so that I wouldn't end up with two otherwise physically fit sailors on the remedial fitness program.

    Dan
    While swimming seems to be clearly more critically dependent on technique, I'm a bad long-distance runner . I can go 2k in the water comfortably and with pace that is considered not bad by most people (< 40 minutes). But when I run long-distance, my heart rate shoots up very quickly to 145 BPM at just about 400m from start, despite running at very slow pace (9 min/km, or about 14 min/mile). It will then rise up to 160+ BPM after 2 km. I was a sprinter type though (for running) but I can both cruise and sprint for swimming.

  8. #28
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by __steve__ View Post
    being in the AFR I somewhat envy the Navy’s fitness test option to swim instead of running. In my age group it takes 10.5 min 1.5 mile run to get a perfect score on the aerobic part (I did that once but it was not worth the effort and trauma). The navy standard for perfect score with a swim is about 8 min for a 500m swim.
    Wow, that is surprising. I know the Army's perfect score was an 11:54 for 2 miles, which makes 10.5 for 1.5 miles seem like a walk in the park. NO swim option there, either. This is for the younger crowd, though, so maybe the ages we are discussing are different.

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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by 67King View Post
    Wow, that is surprising. I know the Army's perfect score was an 11:54 for 2 miles, which makes 10.5 for 1.5 miles seem like a walk in the park. NO swim option there, either. This is for the younger crowd, though, so maybe the ages we are discussing are different.
    I was referring to the time standards in an age group (50-59), well beyond average retirement age, with a minimum standard of like 16 minutes. For an experienced swimmer 500 yds in 8 min is just 9 solid solid turns with good breathing rhythm. Another 30 seconds faster with a shavedown and tech suit.

  10. #30
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by ForceDJ View Post
    During my Navy career I frequently held the collateral duty of my command/department's fitness coordinator. The main part of that duty is to administer the periodic Physical Readiness Test (PRT). The physical portion(s) of the test are (or were when I was in) push-up, sit-ups, and choice of either a 1.5 mile run, or a 500 yd/450m swim. At one duty station there were a couple guys in my department that were generally in very good physical condition. They were 'muscle heads'...concentrated on lifting weights. But they always passed the PRT with above average scores doing the 1.5 mile run. But one test cycle they decided they were going to do the swim instead. They could "swim" but weren't swimmers. They actually said to me that they figured they could "muscle their way through the 500 yards." They wanted to prove something. I tried to talk them out of it. They had too much muscle to keep themselves afloat with their lack of technique. I couldn't get through to them. So, they waited until the last day of the test cycle. They showed up at the pool ready to swim. After just one lap it was OBVIOUS they weren't going to make the 500 yards in the allotted time...if they were going to finish at all (without drowning). Of course they failed. I, as the fitness coordinator, authorized one additional test...for the 1.5 mile run...just for these to knuckleheads...so that I wouldn't end up with two otherwise physically fit sailors on the remedial fitness program.

    Dan
    This is so funny to me.

    While stationed with a unit that included all four services, during a time when the Air Force "PT test" was sitting on a bike hooked up to a computer, I decided to take all the other services' PT tests. Mostly to shut them up with their "haha, Air Force "PT". You gonna go sit on a bike for 10 minutes, Mike?"

    For the Navy test, I decided to do the 500y swim. I was 30 years old and hadn't started masters swimming yet (that was still 5 years off), but I knew how to swim, and would swim "for exercise" every once in a while. I did okay on the push-ups (55) and sit-ups (my worst event, 45), and prepared to swim. The Navy Chief in charge of the test made a big public showing of explaining to "the Air Force guy" what 500 yards meant in the SCY pool, giving me good-natured intra-service joshing about not being able to fly between the walls or walking the lane instead of swimming. I just smiled.

    Nine minutes and 33 seconds later, I hopped out of the pool, the fastest swimmer that day. (Turned out the fastest swimmer that year, and for two years beyond that.) The Navy Chief was incredulous, asking the lap counter, in front of me, if she had counted wrong. She (and I) assured him that yes, the "Air Force guy" had swum the 500 yards.

    A Navy Senior Chief I had been working out with since being stationed there, a former Special Boat Unit guy, proposed to the Commander of the unit to put my name on the unit's "best times" board, to guilt the sailors in to working out and trying to beat the Air Force guy who held the record for the unit. The Commander refused.

    Fast forward many years and many masters teams and different units later, and at 45 I swam 500 meters in 6:53. Very good for me and very happy. Still can't believe 9:33 was any sort of record among a bunch of sailors!
    --Mike Tyson (yes, my real name)

    https://blogs.marathonswimmers.org/ironmike/

  11. #31
    Very Active Member ForceDJ's Avatar
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Just because we're alway on the water, Mike, doesn't mean we all (sailors) can swim. Seriously though...to this day it baffles me when active duty sailors show up at the pool who can't swim to save their life. When I went to boot camp...you didn't get out of boot camp until you could swim. I did the Air Force bike-computer test once when I was stationed at an USAF installation. My score was off the chart. Literally. In the Navy 500yd swims for the PRT...my best ever was 6:02. Usually I was around 6:15-6:30. I always max'd out the test score with a perfect 300.

    Dan

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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by MickYoung View Post
    At one point there had been 19 deaths during triathlons (not awful considering how many triathlons there were). 18 had happened during the swimming portion of the events. So, yeah, you can lose big-time with the swimming.

    Big OOOOPS!

    As our president says "FAKE NEWS."

    I just checked my numbers. There's a wikipedia page about this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lon_fatalities

    I did a very quick hand count - after sorting by event - and got 117 swimming deaths out of 164 total deaths. So 1) a lot more deaths than I reported. 2) A lot lower percentage from swimming. (Perhaps my earlier figures were about the Ironman race in Oahu,Hawaii, where they have, like, real waves.)

    Still, swimming is the shortest event, and accounts for 71% of the deaths. It's dangerous. Still "lose big time."

    [Note: I'm SO glad it was me that pointed out this error, not someone else. Thanks, guys!]

  13. #33
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    Quote Originally Posted by MickYoung View Post
    Big OOOOPS!

    As our president says "FAKE NEWS."

    I just checked my numbers. There's a wikipedia page about this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...lon_fatalities

    I did a very quick hand count - after sorting by event - and got 117 swimming deaths out of 164 total deaths. So 1) a lot more deaths than I reported. 2) A lot lower percentage from swimming. (Perhaps my earlier figures were about the Ironman race in Oahu,Hawaii, where they have, like, real waves.)

    Still, swimming is the shortest event, and accounts for 71% of the deaths. It's dangerous. Still "lose big time."

    [Note: I'm SO glad it was me that pointed out this error, not someone else. Thanks, guys!]
    In fairness, while a high rate (nearly 3/4 of deaths!), it's also a lot harder for EMS to get to a distressed or drowning swimmer than a runner or cyclist who's collapsed, even in a well organized race with plenty of support. A triathlete goes down on land, you find them, start CPR/treatment, etc. Different story in the water.

    But I'd bet that technique and familiarity with the water does help keep folks out of distress - or able to plan in case of emergency - in the first place.

  14. #34
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    Re: A question about technique vs strength

    It's technique in my honest opinion. But it would be better if you have mid level strength.

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