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Thread: Ande's Swimming Tips: Swimming Faster Faster

  1. #41
    Bigger than a breadbox mattson's Avatar
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    I think people are losing track of Wayne's point. You don't *need* to breath while swimming, as long as the duration is less than 40 seconds. He didn't say anything about *wanting* to take a breath. I'm guessing the pain of not breathing would be enough of a distraction to make it worthwhile to breath (a little bit) during the 50.

    Have there been any studies about the body's response to *wanting* air? (Any stress responses, that would reduce muscular effort?) Or is it entirely in the head?

  2. #42
    Very Active Member hooked-on-swimming's Avatar
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    Originally posted by breastroker

    There have been many many breaststroke champions who have told me they did not breathe for several strokes at Olympics, NCAA's, Worlds, etc. Many never told their coaches because they were afraid of the back lash.

    I would say all (there I go again) breaststrokers instinctively know they are faster underwater than on the surface. And when they don't breathe they also find going faster.
    I do not quite understand this, Wayne!If you do not breathe on a 50 m. breast, than obviously you would just break the surface a bit with your head without having your mouth out of the water???And if that's what those champions you are talking about did , than how could their coaches not see it?How can anyone not see it if you hardly have your head out of the water.If I am wrong and not breathing still entails your mouth out of the water, than I do not see the point of not breathing if you have a chance to do so ...
    'Citius, Altius, Fortius'

  3. #43
    Very Active Member valhallan's Avatar
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    Although breathing is a voluntary action, if one decides to intentionally cut back on it,... the "lights" can go out. There have been cases of people doing underwater swims in practice, who have passed out nearing the 75 yard mark.

    Good idea to see if the lifeguard is still awake before attempting this.

  4. #44
    Very Active Member Seagurl51's Avatar
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    Originally posted by hooked-on-swimming
    I do not quite understand this, Wayne!If you do not breathe on a 50 m. breast, than obviously you would just break the surface a bit with your head without having your mouth out of the water???And if that's what those champions you are talking about did , than how could their coaches not see it?How can anyone not see it if you hardly have your head out of the water.If I am wrong and not breathing still entails your mouth out of the water, than I do not see the point of not breathing if you have a chance to do so ...
    There are ways to take a breath and have no one notice. I personally, keep my head pretty tucked when I am doing breaststroke, so I would only have to have it about two or three inches lower to not have my mouth come out. I have never tried, but I bet if I had someone watch me, some people would not notice a difference between my breathing stroke and my none breathing.

    ~Kyra

  5. #45
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
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    Originally posted by valhallan
    Although breathing is a voluntary action, if one decides to intentionally cut back on it,... the "lights" can go out. There have been cases of people doing underwater swims in practice, who have passed out nearing the 75 yard mark.
    Were they real swimmers, or were they...girlie swimmers?

    Seriously, there have been deaths reported. A few years ago a swimmer at UTSA died in practice. No one realized he was in trouble because he was known for his breathholding, frequently sitting on the bottom of the pool.

    Hey Ande, how about some more tips?
    Last edited by gull; March 19th, 2005 at 11:04 AM.

  6. #46
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    hooked-on-swimming
    Breaststroke has changed greatly in the last few years, and due to the new success of Amanda and others will continue to change for the better.

    The lower in the water you are when you do breathe, the easier it will be to be head neutral and kick with your head underwater.
    Try swimming breast that way, then practice swimming breast without breathing, just coming up enough to have the tip of your head come above the waters surface.

    You will find that you have more fowards movement (velocity)
    What is swimming but trying to go forwards faster.

    Now try swimming breaststroke with one breath, then one without, then another stroke with a breath.

    You will soon find that you feel much faster, and that you are taking less strokes down the pool.

    You do count your strokes don't you?

    I had a 12 year old girl, that using the starting blocks and normal pulldown, could do a 50 yard breast in FIVE (5) strokes

    Allen Stark, can you do that? I repeat 5 strokes.

    Hey , people who sit around on the bottom of a pool aint too bright.

    Most division 1 male swimmers who has put thousands of miles of training, have the ability to go about 40 seconds on fuel stored in the muscles and blood of the body. They have tested some that could go 42 seconds plus. That is just about covering the 100 yard freestyle.

    The reason some swimmers really need to breathe in sprints is they have more than one sprint that day and night. Breathing more often lowers the lactic acid concentration for the next race.

    You guys want more tips?

    Just like ande stated, you need to practice your race.
    That means that if you plan on not breathing from the flags in to the wall, you MUST practice that.

    Never try someting new in a race. Practice is for that.

    Men, shave down a week before the big race, then shave again. By practicing with a shave, you get used to the feeling and extra speed. You will be more in control.

    I have seen many men shave down, then with their extra speed, miss turns and finishes.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  7. #47
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    What I love about Wayne is that he is not afraid to go against conventional wisdom. I have tried the no breath breaststrokeand it doesn't seem faster for me yet,but then sometimes it takes an old dog longer to learn a new trick. Muscle glycogen and lactic acid are why you need to breath in a sprint,but blood CO2 is why you want to. Wayne,what is the data on 42 sec. of glycogen? That is much longer than I learned. In maximum Distance per Stroke drills I can do 50 yd in 4 strokes plus pullouts(so is that 4 or 6)
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  8. #48
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    Swimming Faster Faster: Tip 6

    Swimming Faster Faster: Tip 6

    When a friend asks me to help them improve their swimming, the first thing I do is ask them to swim an easy 25.
    (usually these friends are non swimmers who are about to do a triathlon, sometimes they are y fellow masters swimmer)

    I don't give them any tips.
    I want to see what their skills are.

    While they are doing their easy 25 I'm counting their strokes.

    Most people are inefficient and take far too many strokes per 25.
    Usually I can help them knock off 5 or more strokes per 25,
    by improving their streamline and their arm actions.

    count your strokes and train yourself to take fewer.

    Ande

    btw way wayne, i really like your breastroke advice
    I can't wait to try it

  9. #49
    Very Active Member newmastersswimmer's Avatar
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    btw way wayne, i really like your breastroke advice originally posted by Ande in regards to Wayne McCauley's Advise


    DITTO!!.....I have been trying to incorporate some of thos excellent ideas the last couple of workouts and I have to say that I am a believer in the McCauley program!

    newmastersswimmer

    p.s. If you get a chance Ande.....Let me know what your take on my 200 IM analysis/breakdown is (on the other thread about 200 and 400 IMS).....You seem to know a lot about IMs.....Have you decided yet on Nationals this May?? I am hoping you will be there ....even though I think you are faster than me at this point,... I like the thought of a good challenge anyway....(You know that whole "pretending" thing you discussed earlier.....only I guess I was suppose to keep that a secret right?)
    "The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits" Albert Einstein

    "I would love to help you out.....Which way did you come in?" Groucho Marx

    "24 beers in a case and 24 hours in a day....Coincidence?" Steven Wright

  10. #50
    Very Active Member hooked-on-swimming's Avatar
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    5 STROKES PER 50???You mean 2 one way and 3 back???Is that right?
    Wayne, I know that breaststroke improved and changed, I am not a dummy...I am doing my research including studying your opinions.But... you just contradict yourself sometimes:you are saying how Amanda Beard and other stars improved breaststroke these days,but then right away jump into saying how important it is to stay low and maybe even not breathe just showing the tip of your head.I am not saying that couldn't work!!!I have to try it...But you obviously have seen Amanda swim breaststroke.Well, how low does she stay in the water?She gets so high out of the water you can see her belly button(just kidding, but you know what I mean).So I just cannot connect Amanda Beard and the staying low/no breathing concept.Yes, it can work, but not for everyone!!!Something that works for you might not work for me, we just need to be in search for OUR OWN style, not claim that this and only this will make you faster ....
    Just my 2 cents.
    'Citius, Altius, Fortius'

  11. #51
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Ande,

    That is exactly what I do for all swimmers I coach.

    I tell them to warm up and I watch. I tell them to swim breaststroke and fly and I watch. I tell them to kick fly and breast on their backs, and I watch.

    Only then will I tell them what I was looking for and what drills I will have them do.

    And always count their strokes for them. They are usually surprised on how easy it is to swim and also cut the stroke rate.
    But what I love most is when a young one comes back from a major swim meet and beams telling how easy it was, how fast they were.

    hooked-on-swimming, WHEN did you see Amanda swim last?
    1996? 2000?

    She no longer swims that way, she used to take 43 to 46 strokes per 50 meters.

    In the 2004 Olympics, her first length was done in 18 strokes, and she kept below 20 the next three lengths. Amanda swims the way I have coached for a long while. She still comes up a little, but no more belly button showing!!!!!

    Her stroke is a fast pull, kick with her head underwater, and a glide of almost one second!

    Even in a 100 breaststroke, both men and women are getting their heads underwater before the kick, so there is a slight glide.

    Look at http://www.usaswimming.org/usasweb/V...96&ItemId=1582
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  12. #52
    Very Active Member hooked-on-swimming's Avatar
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    Wayne, I said it and I will say it again: I am not a dummy!!!And yes, I watched Amanada swim in Athens and watched the same videos thousands of times!!!I was not saying she does not have a glide(SHE DOES !) and I was not saying she takes many strokes per length, all I was saying is that she comes up HIGH, not a little, take at the picture from the link you provided me with yourself .It is definitely NOT showing the tip of your head.
    P.S. Now you say you coach to show the tip of your head, now you say Amanda swims exactly how you coach the breaststroke.Please, Wayne, pick one of the two, 'cause they are complete opposites...She breathes on her first stroke, too, don't you preach no breath on your first stroke?
    P.P.S. I respect your willingness to search for new, Wayne, but no offence here- you contradicted yourself in the previous posts...
    'Citius, Altius, Fortius'

  13. #53
    Very Active Member Allen Stark's Avatar
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    Amanda still does lift her head and upper body more than most swimmers when breathing. However she does much less than before and she really stays long and underwater on her kicks. Wayne,when I first read about your 12 yr. old girl I didn't notice you said with a dive. Yes I can go 25 yd with a dive,pullout, and one stroke. Thats in a DPS drill though. My goal is to swim 200 yd. Breast in a meet in 40 strokes plus pullouts(avg.5 strokes per length.)
    "To strive,to seek,to find,and not to yield" Tennyson
    Allen

  14. #54
    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    Amanda does not pull nor does she come up high compared to years past. That photo of Amanda is an OLD photo, notice her looking straight ahead. She does not do that now.

    Ande said it. You must be head neutral. She used to look at the other end of the pool, and you could see her belly button

    Now she looks down, and she does not come out as high!

    You have to coach each swimmer differently. Amanda has years of her style of pulling, which ties the pull with strong core body strength, to the legs. You don't change greatly what brought you there. Her coach changed what was important.

    What is important in breaststroke is keeping the hips up during the pull, as the legs will stop you with HUGE drag. The higher you raise your head (about 11-12 pounds) the lower your hips will sink.

    By not raising the head as high, it now takes less time to get the head underwater for the kick.


    What is important is how long you are propulsive during the kick.

    Also you seem very hung up on OLD pics. I swam that way 15 years ago. I don't swim that way now.

    And you seem to want to be picky. Not everyone is willing to "not breathe on the first stroke up", so what. I coach both fly and breaststroke. If a butterflyer were to breathe on the first stroke up, their coach would have a fit. Both strokes go about 12-14 meters underwater, both believe the first stroke in the race should be the best of the length. So why do many coaches want you to breathe on the first stroke of breaststroke?

    You also have to remember there are over 50 ways to swim breaststroke. Every body style is different.

    Look at NCAAs for women, more look like this:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

  15. #55
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
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    Originally posted by breastroker
    Hey , people who sit around on the bottom of a pool aint too bright.
    I'm not sure it's too bright to recommend hypoxic training as you're doing, unless I've misinterpreted your posts. No breath 25s are one thing, but no breath 50s?

    It's irrelevant how intelligent this young man was (like most swimmers, I believe he was in fact a good student); my point was that many people do not recognize the inherent risk. It is definitely possible to hold your breath to the point that you lose consciousness.

  16. #56
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Had to edit the Docs name

    Hypoxic training, developed by Doc Counsilman??? See this article... http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...07/ai_n9270380 However it had been around for years before Doc put a name to it. Zatopec the great marathon runner used it in his training, he called it oxygen depravation.

    George Park www.swimdownhill.com

  17. #57
    USMS Member since 2003 gull's Avatar
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    My point exactly (see "Close supervision"). I think there's very little data to support hypoxic training (I'm not referring to training at altitude). Maglischo discusses this in his book...er, doorstop.

  18. #58
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Just to update

    Emil Zatopek

    Born: Sept. 19, 1922
    Czech distance runner

    winner of 1948 Olympic gold medal at 10,000 meters; 4 years later, won unprecedented Olympic triple crown (5,000 meters, 10,000 meters and marathon) at 1952 Games in Helsinki.

    Died: Nov. 22, 2000

    He told me that when he trained he would hold his breath several times during his runs for a distance of 100 m.

    He ran as if he didn't know how to run his arms flapped up and down and seemed out of control.

    He surely could run!!

    George

  19. #59
    Very Active Member SwiminONandON's Avatar
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    I think the problem here is that every swimmer (for the most part) has a different style. Different things work for different people. Obviously no one is going to tell Amanda Beard she comes way too high out of the water and she needs to work on that if she wants to swim fast. Same thing goes for Michael Phelps on fly, most coaches aren't going to let their students get away with breathing every stroke. To every rule you learn there is an elite athlete out there going against that. That doesn't mean that it is right or will work for you.

    I don't know Amanda or Michael's coaches but my guess is their knowledge is vast and they have figured out that for their athletes the way they swim is best for them as individuals.

    Swimming like Amanda or Michael or whoever else might not produce the best results for you. But it has produced the best results for them. I do enjoy trying to emulate Amanda's breaststroke though.

  20. #60
    Very Active Member hooked-on-swimming's Avatar
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    Wayne, I am not hung up on old pictures, you gave me that picture yourself, remember?Nor was I discussing breathing or not on butterfly(I do not breathe on my first stroke there).All I was saying is that Amanda still comes up higher than other swimmers.I am not discussing whether she came up even higher before or not, I am talking about today.I think you are hung up more on what she used to do...
    You totally missed my point, I tried to say that not everybody should should be applied the same technique to...We are all different and unique....So not everyone would not breathe on the first stroke in BREASTSTROKE and not everyone would swim a 50m. breaststroke without breathing(that I have not even seen yet)
    'Citius, Altius, Fortius'

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