Ask Ande

[Seagurl51]

Originally posted by bda721
This is a hard one for me to verbalize, but I will try.

When I swim free I put my hand in line with my head then move it out to the shoulder before I start my pull. The coach that we have tells me that I should not put my hand in front of my head but instead just stop it at the shoulder. When I do this (and I really have to concentrate on it) I feel like I am not getting enough out of the pull and I have yet to see any improvement in my times. What do you think?

I know I'm not even close to Ande's skill level, but I did the same thing and my coach just fixed it. The thing she said to do was picture your arms coming in at 10 and 2. A way that helped me picture it better was to stand sideways in front of a mirror. Put your arm up like you're on your side...so your arm is covering your ear perfectly in line with your shoulder. Then turn to face the mirror and see where your arm is. It is actually a little wider than your shoulder. Then put it where you put your hand in now, and then turn to the side. It's comes to the front. That creates drag when you roll so you actually do want to have your arms hit wider, so that you're in perfect streamline on your side. It feels REALLY weird at first, but you'll get used to it. I had the same problem with my pull so she said to really concentrate on keeping your palms facing back, so that you have a good surface to pull against. Paddles helped me to recognize where I was really slipping and needed to focus on keeping my palm back. Good Luck!!

[ande]

10 and 2 seems wide
i think 11 and 1 is better

ande

Originally posted by Seagurl51
I know I'm not even close to Ande's skill level, but I did the same thing and my coach just fixed it. The thing she said to do was picture your arms coming in at 10 and 2. A way that helped me picture it better was to stand sideways in front of a mirror. Put your arm up like you're on your side...so your arm is covering your ear perfectly in line with your shoulder. Then turn to face the mirror and see where your arm is. It is actually a little wider than your shoulder. Then put it where you put your hand in now, and then turn to the side. It's comes to the front. That creates drag when you roll so you actually do want to have your arms hit wider, so that you're in perfect streamline on your side. It feels REALLY weird at first, but you'll get used to it. I had the same problem with my pull so she said to really concentrate on keeping your palms facing back, so that you have a good surface to pull against. Paddles helped me to recognize where I was really slipping and needed to focus on keeping my palm back. Good Luck!!

[SwiminONandON]

I'm guessing she said 10 and 2 as an exageration drill ...

[some_girl]

Originally posted by ande


In freestyle you should put your hands in the water well beyond your head, but above the water, your arm shouldn't be fully extended. Once you've placed your hand in the water, you should fully extend your arm (just under the surface of the water point your fingers, hand and arms at the end of the pool you're swimming towards) and slightly pause it, then begin your arm stroke. (the placement and pause cleans the bubbles off your hand and arm which makes your arm stroke more efficient)

I've known lots of people to say this. But when a friend of mine from my team was helping me with my stroke, he got me to lay my arm all the way out before putting it in the water, and it did make me about eight thousand times faster.

Also, I think, Ande, that thinking 10 and 2 can help, because when you first start doing that--or when I did--the correct position can feel way way too wide, because you are used to your arms being so narrow. Does that make sense?

[scyfreestyler]

Originally posted by some_girl
I've known lots of people to say this. But when a friend of mine from my team was helping me with my stroke, he got me to lay my arm all the way out before putting it in the water, and it did make me about eight thousand times faster.

Also, I think, Ande, that thinking 10 and 2 can help, because when you first start doing that--or when I did--the correct position can feel way way too wide, because you are used to your arms being so narrow. Does that make sense?

You are abosfrigginlutely correct. This is why most drills tend to exaggerate the correct movement they are designed to teach you.

[bda721]

When one pushes off the wall and is in the streamline position the hands are either touching or on top of eachother. Doing this puts your hands in line with your head, and reduces drag so in theory wouldn't this be the best spot for your hands when you are doing the stroke?

[Seagurl51]

Yea the 10 and 2 is definately exxagerated. But, at least for me, when I felt like I was doing 10 and 2 it ended up being closer to 11 and 1.

[ande]

that would seem to make sense, but when you put your hand in the water you want your arm straight and extended which is straight above your shoulder.

only hook your hands on pushoffs and dives.

you also want body balance efficient swimmers don't cross their midsection line above or below the water
the midsection line is if you split yourself in half starting at the top of your head, through your belly button down to the your groin.

in breastroke people don't hook their hands in a streamline after each stroke they put them straight out in front.

ande

Originally posted by bda721
When one pushes off the wall and is in the streamline position the hands are either touching or on top of eachother. Doing this puts your hands in line with your head, and reduces drag so in theory wouldn't this be the best spot for your hands when you are doing the stroke?

[bda721]

Originally posted by ande
.

in breastroke people don't hook their hands in a streamline after each stroke they put them straight out in front.

ande

Would it be the same for fly? I would like to think that you would get more pull by bringing your hands as close together as possible but not touching. I would like to think it because that is how I do it.

[ande]

i suggest you copy the best
in fly that's ian crocker and michael phelps
they put their arms in at shoulder width

Great butterflyers hook their hands when streamlining and dolphin kicking but not when swimming.

ande

Originally posted by bda721
Would it be the same for fly? I would like to think that you would get more pull by bringing your hands as close together as possible but not touching. I would like to think it because that is how I do it.

[craiglll@yahoo.com]

I think it is odd that some one thought to hook their hands at the beginning of fly stroke. I had a coach who would have binged you with a tennis ballif you had done that in front of him.

[bda721]

I never said hooking the hands, I asked about bringing them close together without touching.

I used to have a coach that would throw things in water polo; tennis balls, water polo balls, tables, chairs, refs.... We called him Screamin' Freeman. He hated coaching us because we weren't quite as good as the Junior National Team he coached.

[SwiminONandON]

Ah, see now gymnatics coaches just tell you that you are fat, lazy, and that you suck...

[ande]

then they wonder why these girls have low self esteem and eating disorders

ande

Originally posted by SwiminONandON
Ah, see now gymnatics coaches just tell you that you are fat, lazy, and that you suck...

[ande]

so it's about shoulder width

that's too bad on screamin freeman
eddie never raises his voice
he tends to be very calm

I don't think the rah rah rah approach works very well.

Ande

Originally posted by bda721
I never said hooking the hands, I asked about bringing them close together without touching.

I used to have a coach that would throw things in water polo; tennis balls, water polo balls, tables, chairs, refs.... We called him Screamin' Freeman. He hated coaching us because we weren't quite as good as the Junior National Team he coached.

[bda721]

It was high school and we didn't know that it could be any better. And after about a week we got so used to it that it became really funny to us. He was also the swimming coach, but didn't yell at us as much, probably because we were a great team. Ron Freeman, not a bad guy at all.

[SwiminONandON]

I think different people need different types of coaching. I don't know any college aged males that would do well with the rah rah rah approach... I do better when there is pressure on me, and expectations.

I like hearing good job or nice set, but if you hear it on EVERY set it isn't effective ... I like coaches that you have to work hard for in order to get praise.

As for the gymnastics thing, my old coach used to tell me I was fat all the time or I was weak or lazy and I just nodded and cursed him out in my head ... by the way at the time I was about 5 feet tall and weighed about 100lbs, I had the illustrious six-pack and such low body fat I didn't go through the womanly cycle ... I ate like horse (though very healthy) and never puked...I was pretty mentally tough, though I did have teammates that weren't

[DanSad]

New question - I've seen charts & graphs in books and on posters in gyms that show the expected rate of decline in performance for athletes as they age. I don't recall exactly what the numbers were but I believe 1-2% per year was roughly the amount given. Everyone will be different of course but I was wondering what other people have experinced. How much have you slowed down? Was there a certain age where you saw a larger drop in ability? I suppose when you started swimming and how long you've been swimming comes into play too, i.e if you just started swimming at 40 you'll improve your time but if you've been swimming since you were 10 you'd get slower from one year to the next at age 40.

[ande]

Interesting questions

There are no set answers for an expected rate of decline in athletic performance as athletes age.

You can look at masters records and see where they currently stand, but then what happens is there are new generations of swimmers who redefine possibilities.

I believe the rate of an athletes decline depends upon training, talent, and health. Very often there are aspects athletes can add to their training or build up over years so that they don't decline from one year to the next.

as an example there are now several 50 year olds who can swim a 100 yard free in 48 seconds. Rich Abrahams at age 60 swam the 100 yard free in 49 seconds. When Rich was in his 20's in the early 60's he swam the 50 around 21 mid and he's 22 low still.
I'd guess his 100 was 47 - 48. There are guys now who go 41 in the 100, who knows how fast they'll be when they turn 40.

There's now a financial incentive to athletes to train harder longer because the very best swimmers, Olympians can earn a decent living. Josh Davis at age 32 went 1:49 in the 200 LCM free training part time.

for me personally here's some 50 yard free times
in 1991 at age 28, 20.5
in 1996 at age 33, 20.9
in 2004 at age 40, 22.4
my training slipped between 1999 - fall 2003 and I haven't been focusing on the 50, I'm curious to see how fast I could go in the 50, If I focused on it and trained hard for a season.
My guess is I'd be between 21.0 - 21.5

How fast a masters swimmer might swim in any particular year depends upon

+ how fast the swimmer was during his career,

+ how out of shape and over weight the swimmer is at the start of his comeback and

+ how often, how long, and how hard the swimmer trains


Further it might help you to investigate the times of a masters swimmers who've trained consistently hard over the years

Larry Wood is a good example. Investigate his top 10 times
Bobby Patten, Tom Wolf, Bill Specht, Jim McConica, Graham Johnston, Rich Abrahams, Laura Val, there's many other really great women swimmers who's careers you can track
the top 10 data base goes back to 1993. Elite swimmers are easier to track because their data tends to be better archived.
Look for people who've set records across several age groups

The bottom line, is most masters swimmers can improve from one year to the next. It just gets more difficult as we get older.

Ande

Originally posted by DanSad
New question - I've seen charts & graphs in books and on posters in gyms that show the expected rate of decline in performance for athletes as they age. I don't recall exactly what the numbers were but I believe 1-2% per year was roughly the amount given. Everyone will be different of course but I was wondering what other people have experinced. How much have you slowed down? Was there a certain age where you saw a larger drop in ability? I suppose when you started swimming and how long you've been swimming comes into play too, i.e if you just started swimming at 40 you'll improve your time but if you've been swimming since you were 10 you'd get slower from one year to the next at age 40.

[newmastersswimmer]

To add to the Richard Abrahams story (and others), I am curious as to what Dennis Baker's story is?.....I noticed from the results of the Santa Clara meet you posted on another thread, that Dennis performed quite well at that meet at the ripe old age of 43....He also went 1:50.6 in the 200 yard fly just a few months ago.....He has posted fast times in middle distance and distance freestyle events in the recent past as well. Do you happen to know where he swam in college for example?

I am also curious to know just how fast Rich Saeger is these days?....Mr. GoodSmith indicated that Rich was by far the fastest male freestyler in the world over the age of 40.....I haven't seen any results in the USMS data base to back that up though....He must be doing what Dennis is doing then ....i.e. swimming USS meets instead of USMS meets.....Do you have any personal info on Rich by chance?.....like some of his recent top times?


just curious,

Newmastersswimmer