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Thread: Ask Ande

  1. #61
    Very Active Member LindsayNB's Avatar
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    At my big meet this weekend the 200fr and 100fly are back to back events. There are 200 entries in the 200fr and 100 in the 100fly. I am wondering how much of an effect swimming the 200fr is likely to have on my 100fly? The 100fly is the event I most want to do well in and I'm considering scratching the 200fr. How long does it take to recover from a 200fr? I know it varies, I'm just looking for anything to help decide whether to scratch. Thanks!

  2. #62
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    hello,

    personally I don't use paddles or any other equipment, but I know some coaches have their swimmers swim with just paddles. I think it's good to do it that way because you can kick.
    Most people can swim with paddles faster than they can swim because their hands have more surface area which equates to greater power per pull. I've also heard of coaches assign sets with paddles and fins. I know Mike Bottom has given fin/paddle sets. This allows swimmers to swim at shaved and tapered race pace or faster. I think anything you do can help.


    on your question about fast sets with short rest.
    for me that would be a set like
    6 x 100 on 1:05; make it
    or 10 x 200 on 2:15; make it
    or as many 150's that you can make on a particular pace then if you fail, rest one and try again.

    if you're training for 200's and up sets like these are very helpful.
    They get you used to swimming hard and fast.

    I don't think sprinters need to do them as much as
    distance and middle distance swimmers.

    These sets are very hard. They are great when you're making them and on a roll, they suck when you're hurting. They give you a good chance to coming close to race like conditions. It can shock your system and force it to become better.

    But the key thing is variation
    the factors we've got to play with are

    Distance per swim
    intensity / effort
    # of repetitions
    mental focus during the set
    rest

    ie
    5 x 300's on 3:30
    even split them and get at least 10 seconds rest

    adjust the intervals for what you can make.

    I read somewhere where it's good to do half distance
    like if you're training for the 500 do 250 repeats
    200 do 100 repeats.

    i don't think you need to do those kind of sets every day
    but several times a week is probably a good idea.
    I know they are what I have to do to improve my 500.

    Ande

    Originally posted by gull80
    Hi Ande. I have two questions:

    1. Is there any benefit to swimming sets with a pull buoy (no paddles)?

    2. How important is it to include sets with the shortest/fastest interval you can make, instead of sets with, say, a 5:1 work:rest ratio?

  3. #63
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    it's tough any time you have back to back swims

    big meets are better because you'll get more rest.

    one strategy is to enter the first event with no time and the second event with a fast time

    so you'll be in the early heats of the first event
    and the later events of the second.

    i try to do my most important swim first

    you decide how hard you're going to swim that first event.
    if you swim the first event smart and split it well, you're likely to recover faster than if you you go all out and die. I think swimming going out too hard and dying takes more out of you mentally and physically than smimming smart and correctly splitting a race.

    it's your call
    Which event is most important?

    this summer I want to be fresh when I swim my 200 IM
    so I won't put any events in front of it.

    Ande

    Originally posted by LindsayNB
    At my big meet this weekend the 200fr and 100fly are back to back events. There are 200 entries in the 200fr and 100 in the 100fly. I am wondering how much of an effect swimming the 200fr is likely to have on my 100fly? The 100fly is the event I most want to do well in and I'm considering scratching the 200fr.
    How long does it take to recover from a 200fr? I know it varies, I'm just looking for anything to help decide whether to scratch. Thanks!

  4. #64
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    Here's a question...

    How do you swim a 200 Yard Fly? (middle 100 faster?)



    Also, are there any rules that state how long a swimmer can hang on the wall at a turn. (say, for example, you broke the swim into 4 x 50 taking a 5 second count after each) Can you do that?

  5. #65
    Very Active Member SwiminONandON's Avatar
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    You can make your turns really slow, but you can't stop and hang on the wall.

  6. #66
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    You mean I can't stop and talk to the stroke judge and say like, "Hey what's up, how am I looking? Any chance for a DQ today?"

  7. #67
    Very Active Member SwiminONandON's Avatar
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    Actually you should totally do that b/c it would be hysterical. I think I got out a DQ on fly once b/c the official and I had chatted for about 10 minutes the day before. (I had some questionable leg separation that could have possibly resembeld a flutter kick).

    You don't want to do all the work for a 200 fly and then get DQ'd though ...

  8. #68
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    True that!

  9. #69
    Active Member sibleyclan's Avatar
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    Also, are there any rules that state how long a swimmer can hang on the wall at a turn. (say, for example, you broke the swim into 4 x 50 taking a 5 second count after each) Can you do that?
    The rule just states that after a [legal] touch has been made, "the swimmer may turn in any manner desired."

    As there is nothing explicitly saying you can't do it, I would imagine it would be OK (as long as you didn't stand on the bottom! You can only do that in Free.)

    I won't officiate again until 6/11 but I'll try to remember to ask in the officials briefing. ( I've only been a judge for about 6 months.) I know Masters rules are very similar to USA swimming ones but there are a few differences

  10. #70
    Very Active Member LindsayNB's Avatar
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    I don't think the rules prohibit stopping and hanging on the wall for a while. You could be thrown out for delay of meet but I don't think it is a stroke DQ. Having said that, I don't think it is a good tactic and personally I find it mentally tougher to restart than to just keep going at a slightly slower pace.

  11. #71
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    Yeah, I guess going out slow for the first 50 may be the key for me.

    I just thought about it the other day when I was doing a broken 200 by 50's with 10 seconds rest.

    Personally, I've never swam the 200 fly in Masters competition, but I will this weekend.

    I was wondering if any of you have swum it and what worked for you. It's hard to swim fly slow, you know what I'm saying?

  12. #72
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    It's critical to split 200 fly's correctly
    as a graduated highschool senior at the Texas Age Group Championships in a 200 LM FLY i went 2:17 but split it 1:00, 1:17
    and that isn't the way to do it, that last 100 hurt so bad, I felt dead in the water. i think I went 1:53 SCY in college but I didn't swim it much, maybe split it 53, 60

    really great flyers will split their first and second 100,
    3 to 6 seconds apart.

    If I were to do a 200 fly now
    I'd try to go smooth and easy on the first 50,
    I'd save my legs, and breathe a lot,
    I wouldn't dolphin kick much off the walls.
    I'd keep my hips high and my stroke together, smooth, powerful and long.
    I'd try to make the next 3 50's even as far as time
    like 27, 30, 30, 30; or what ever makes sense for you

    in the 2004 olympic finals

    phelps split it
    25.55 28.90 30.09 29.50
    54.45 59.59; 59.59 - 54.45 = 5.14

    second was
    25.98 29.23 29.86 29.49
    56.21 59.35; 59.35 - 56.21 = 3.14

    third was
    25.90 29.66 29.74 30.62

    i suggest you find the pace and effort you can sustain in this manner. It involves taking out your first 100 much easier than you think you should.

    I think you're allowed to hang on the wall and rest but you must initially touch each wall with 2 hands.
    Though if I swam the 200 fly, I wouldn't rest on the walls.
    You can rest when the race is done

    hope this helps,

    ande

    Originally posted by shoalsswimmer
    Here's a question...

    How do you swim a 200 Yard Fly? (middle 100 faster?)

    Also, are there any rules that state how long a swimmer can hang on the wall at a turn. (say, for example, you broke the swim into 4 x 50 taking a 5 second count after each) Can you do that?

  13. #73
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    I moved this question and my answer here

    Originally posted by gull80
    Ande, do you subscribe to the theory that distance swimmers need to have a six beat kick? After years of swimming with a two beat kick, this spring I switched to a four beat kick as a compromise.
    how do you 4 beat kick?

    sort of
    Some distance swimmers can six beat kick for an entire 1,500
    it's important to find a sustainable gear and train like that.

    I trained with some incredible distance swimmers who used a 2 beat kick like Kim Linehan
    in 1978 as a 16 year old she went 4:07 in the 400 free LCM and
    16:04 in the 1,500

    with that being said, I think distance swimmers need a six beat retro rocket gear that they can use on the last 50 or 100 of a distance race whether. Where they can go into overdrive to defend a position or over take someone who's ahead.

    if you watch the womens 800 free finals at the 2004 Olympics, Kayln Keller needed an overdrive 6 beat kick and lost the bronze by .36 of a second because she kept 2 beat kicking and Diana Munz kicked it into over drive and outswam Kayln in the last 50 meters.

    3 6 MUNZ Diana USA 0.79 8:26.61 29.86
    700m(4) 7:25.56 31.96
    750m(4) 7:56.75 31.19

    4 7 KELLER Kalyn USA 0.68 8:26.97 30.95 2.43
    700m (3) 7:24.12 31.80
    750m (3) 7:56.02 31.90


    http://www.athens2004.com/en/Swimmin...WW018101_C73A1

    Lately I've been training to improve my overdrive gear.

    What ever kick you want to use you must train with it and be totally used to it. I don't recommend training 2 beat kick then using 6 beat in a meet.

    Ande

    here's the whole race results

    3 6 MUNZ Diana USA 0.79 8:26.61 29.86
    050m (3) 29.66
    100m(3) 1:01.05 31.39
    150m(3) 1:33.01 31.96
    200m(3) 2:04.75 31.74
    250m(3) 2:36.62 31.87
    300m(3) 3:08.64 32.02
    350m(3) 3:40.72 32.08
    400m(3) 4:12.96 32.24
    450m(3) 4:45.13 32.17
    500m(4) 5:17.47 32.34
    550m(4) 5:49.51 32.04
    600m(4) 6:21.70 32.19
    650m(4) 6:53.60 31.90
    700m(4) 7:25.56 31.96
    750m(4) 7:56.75 31.19

    4 7 KELLER Kalyn USA 0.68 8:26.97 30.95
    50m(=7) 30.08
    100m(7) 1:01.87 31.79
    150m(8) 1:33.97 32.10
    200m(7) 2:05.75 31.78
    250m(6) 2:37.51 31.76
    300m(4) 3:09.35 31.84
    350m(4) 3:41.41 32.06
    400m(4) 4:13.35 31.94
    450m(4) 4:45.16 31.81
    500m(3) 5:17.09 31.93
    550m(3) 5:48.91 31.82
    600m(3) 6:20.64 31.73
    650m(3) 6:52.32 31.68
    700m(3) 7:24.12 31.80
    750m(3) 7:56.02 31.90

  14. #74
    Very Active Member SwiminONandON's Avatar
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    Here's one for ya', I think (think being the key word) I fairly naturally six beat kick (I am NOT a distance swimmer, but tone the kick down for distance swims) however, I've noticed in distance events especially I tend to stop kicking for a second when I breathe.

    Is that totally weird?


    Also, in an ideal world how would you do 6 workouts a week, i.e., Monday-IM, Tuesday- distance, Wednesday-Sprint, Thursday-Stroke, etc. Not as detailed as which type each day but a good split as to what the "main set" focus should be.

  15. #75
    Very Active Member SwiminONandON's Avatar
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    PS - Larsen Jensen credits his improved 1500 with a changing to a 6 beat kick.

  16. #76
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    Like so totally

    some swimmers cross their ankles at some point during their kick which gives their kick a hitch. Rowdy Gaines kicked like that when I trained with him

    we used to vary our work outs where each day would focus a main set on one of the following


    Drill, (improving form)

    Sprint
    focus on 12.5, 25, 50, 75 and 100 speed

    Aerobic
    steady swimming at a pace with not much rest,
    like 20 x 100 on 1:15 hold 1:10

    Threshold
    like 5 x 100 on 5:00 FAST FAST FAST
    these really hurt

    Recovery
    easy day

    Race
    warm up, swim like you're in a race, warm down,
    maybe swim another one, warm down.


    Ande


    Originally posted by SwiminONandON
    Here's one for ya', I think (think being the key word) I fairly naturally six beat kick (I am NOT a distance swimmer, but tone the kick down for distance swims) however, I've noticed in distance events especially I tend to stop kicking for a second when I breathe.

    Is that totally weird?


    Also, in an ideal world how would you do 6 workouts a week, i.e., Monday-IM, Tuesday- distance, Wednesday-Sprint, Thursday-Stroke, etc. Not as detailed as which type each day but a good split as to what the "main set" focus should be.

  17. #77
    Very Active Member SwiminONandON's Avatar
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    Sweet, Rowdy Gaines and I should hang some time ... seriously though, how much do I need to work on not doing that?

  18. #78
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    rowdy is a real nice guy, he crashed my wedding reception in 1987

    not sure, I don't know how much it slows you down and how much fixing it would screw things up, sometimes it's best to leave quirks alone.

    I used to swim with a guy who did the 200 backstroke who used kind of a sideways sweeping kick, but he went 1:47 in the old days before flip turns, fast skins, and dolphin kicking.

    ande

    Originally posted by SwiminONandON
    Sweet, Rowdy Gaines and I should hang some time ... seriously though, how much do I need to work on not doing that?

  19. #79
    Very Active Member SwiminONandON's Avatar
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    I don't THINK I do it on sprints, just noticed it last night as I was swimming a lovely 1650 (yuck) at practice that sometimes I pause. As I am not a distance swimmer and never plan on becoming one I am not too concerened. I'll try to pay attention tonight to see if I do it all the time ... It figures I'd do something quirky when I swim ...

  20. #80
    Very Active Member SwiminONandON's Avatar
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    I've noticed in general sprinters don't tend to spend as much time underwater in free as in longer distance and in fly, back, and breast. Is this my imagination or is there some advantage in sprints to get out and ontop of the water?

    Oh and how exactly do I go about making my breaststroke kick narrower?

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