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Thread: U.S. Coach Is Suspicious Of China's Swim Program

  1. #1
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    U.S. Coach Is Suspicious Of China's Swim Program

    anyone have any comments on this?

    U.S. Coach Is Suspicious Of China's Swim Program
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...101119_pf.html

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    I wonder what we would say if Italy had done better or worse? I remember at Sydney, many people said that their men were all doped up. Or are we so suspicious a country that we no longer believe any truth?

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    I wasn't going to put this in. I don't want to upset anyone & I'm not calling anyone a cheater. I think it use to be the standard thought about cheaters. My father use to say that the biggest cheater was always the loudest mouth.

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    Distance Man tjrpatt's Avatar
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    If they were up to their 1992 sheninigans again, I wouldn't be surprised. Remember, people did suspect South Africa after they won the relay at Athens. All that was was US college coaches in heat to get foreign swimmers on their college programs because they wouldn't talk back to the coaches like the American swimmer would. What coach wouldn't want a swimmer who is happy to be in this country and willing to what the coach says.

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    Very Active Member scyfreestyler's Avatar
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    Any athlete that wins by cheating is still a loser.

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    Very Active Member hmlee's Avatar
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    It's interesting that the fact that they ARN'T dominant is now what's raising suspicion about their possible use of doping. Seems like it's almost a lose-lose situation for them. If they win too much, they're doping, and if they lose too much, they're doping. Odd.

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    Very Active Member hrietz's Avatar
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    Originally posted by tjrpatt
    If they were up to their 1992 sheninigans again, I wouldn't be surprised. Remember, people did suspect South Africa after they won the relay at Athens. All that was was US college coaches in heat to get foreign swimmers on their college programs because they wouldn't talk back to the coaches like the American swimmer would. What coach wouldn't want a swimmer who is happy to be in this country and willing to what the coach says.
    After watching the Worlds this past week on Fox College Sports, I couldn't help but notice how much bigger (muscular) Schoeman is compared to the others. Unfortunately in this day and age I can't help but be suspicious...

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    Very Active Member Matt S's Avatar
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    Thumbs down Not Bright Statement

    I read the article at the link, and if it is an accurate summary of the coach's remarks, I'm not impressed.

    Don't you think it's a bit premature to start hollerin' about Chinese wunderkind who anyone has yet to see? Let's follow the chain of speculation:
    - the Chinese swimmers weren't as strong as suspected
    - they did not send their best or most promising athletes
    - because they are on steriod or drug regimes that would be detected right now
    - they will continue on these regimes for the next three years, undetected, and we will hear zippo about what they are really doing
    - they will clean up their act before the 08 Olympics in Beijing and be able to pass all drug tests
    - still benefiting from the illegal drug regimes, they will then kick everyone's butt in 2008.

    Am I the only one to see several yawning chasms in that chain of logic requiring Olympic leaps of faith? Gee the Chinese kinda sucked compared to what we expected of them. Maybe they didn't send all their best swimmers. Golly Sgt Carter! Neither did we or the Aussies! Thorpe, not there. Beard, doing a modeling gig. Hoogie, recovering from surgery. Phelps, not swimming all his strongest events. If I recall correctly, the Chinese divers weren't their usual dominant selves either. Maybe it's because that just like we did, some of their best swimmers did not see this meet as a tip top priority?

    I'm sure Coach Salo is a superb coach, and I do mean to make light of his professional qualifications at all. But please spare us all the conspiracy theory. It does not help in the real struggle to get effective measures combating illegal doping when the most prominent coaches in the U.S. make wild, unsubstantiated accusations.

    Matt

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    Very Active Member PeirsolFan's Avatar
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    I may be a Peirsol fan (Salo has coached Aaron since he was 7), BUT to talk like that without clear evidence is poor sportsmanship. I also find it a bit hypocritical considering there were no moves made to reclaim Hansen's gold medal after the entire swimming community clearly saw Kitajima perform an illegal kick.

    I trust in FINA to test accordingly with the knowledge that they wont catch everyone. Get better at testing masking agents, please. They do follow-up a lot on people who have previously tested positive. Case in point, Laura Azevedo of Brazil. Right as her suspension was lifted they requested a sample and she refused to submit one. She's out for life.

    China is worth a review during heats in 2008 if Salo thinks that's when they'll be out in the open. I don't recall if they actually watch you pee (think so) or if you get some privacy, but they test a lot right before or right after you swim. One positive test for steroids should put you out of the sport for life.

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    Distance Man tjrpatt's Avatar
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    Originally posted by PeirsolFan
    I may be a Peirsol fan (Salo has coached Aaron since he was 7), BUT to talk like that without clear evidence is poor sportsmanship. I also find it a bit hypocritical considering there were no moves made to reclaim Hansen's gold medal after the entire swimming community clearly saw Kitajima perform an illegal kick.
    .
    Peirolfan,
    If Hansen was from another country, FINA would have looked into the illegal kick. But, there seemed to be an anti-US bias in that particular situation. But, in the end, Kitajiama is not the breatstroker that Hansen is and Hansen wasn't at his best at the Olympics.

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    Very Active Member PeirsolFan's Avatar
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    I think Hansen was on target at the Olympics. My point is that if a coach is going to stand up and take issue with something and speak out, well, the time for that came and went.

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    I was kinda of suprised at David Salo's comments especially after the announcement by the WADA. At the start of the World Championships, Dick Pound, President of the World Anti-Doping Agency said that his agency will work with China to insure its national anti-doping measures are sufficient to weed out drug cheats before the 2008 Olympics in Beijing. "We'll work with the Chinese to make sure their anti-doping apparatus is adequate," Pound said. "We know the Chinese don't want to be embarrassed by having cheats at their own games." He does not think the host country would risk being embarrassed by a major drug scandal like the 1990's in front of the world stage.

    The WADA was at the meet to conduct tests in conjunction with FINA. Right now they are off to Helsinki to do the same thing at the World Track and Field Championships. I think Salo's comments really ticked off Dick Pound. Pound says "If there is a problem, identify it. If there is not, keep quite." He pretty much made the same remarks that hmlee made when he said this. The WADA found 17 of 4000 Chinese athletes tested positive for drugs last year.

    FINA has stated that they have stepped up their efforts as well. FINA reported that it performed 33 unannounced drug tests on 20 Chinese swimmers so far this year and no chinese swimmer has tested positive. For comparison, FINA performed 107 tests on 79 US swimmers and 3 tested positive. Mustapha Larfaoui, President of FINA, said his organization was at the forefront on the fight against illegal substances and criticism was unwarranted. He did acknowledge that all sports are facing a tough fight to ensure fair competitions. "We're in a struggle that's impossible to win. We're going to win some struggles, but we're not going to win the war. The labs are working very hard to come up with new drugs. Can we ensure total cleanliness? No. I can't committ to that. But we're using all the controls we can to ensure the sport remains clean."

    From these comments from both Pound and Larfaoui, does there seem to be a lack of trust here in the USA from coaches and others that they cannot perform the tasks and duties there organzations say they can? Pound has said its impossibe to weed out 100% of the cheaters. "I am kind of cynical about these things. In many cases, if you haven't tested postive, that only means you haven't tested positive. It would be naive to think everyone here in Montreal is clean. I hope we can catch some of those who are not."

    Another statement that sent shock waves was the one by John Leonard, the head of ASCA. He said a Chinese Coach told him that 50 to 100 swimmers that were selected for development in China have essentially disappeared. That China is secretly traning these swimmers outside the international spotlight so they won't be subject to drug testing. They will not travel and attend competition until shortly before 2008 when they will suprise the world.

    Does this sound familar? That you could go into hiding, train away secretly all year, get stuffed with steriods, HGH, EPO, etc, and be safe in the knowledge that you would not be caught. Then taper off or completely be off the drugs prior to 2008, becauce the drugs had already done the required in months if not years before and dominate the games. I think this is what people are suspicious of.

    Can China not repeat the mistakes it made in the past? Are they not capable of producing World Class performances without drugs? Are we insulting them? Are we still paranoid about what happened in the past?
    Skip Thompson

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    Here is a link about what happened in the past on drugs. www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/coachsci/swimming/drugs/table.htm
    Skip Thompson

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    Against Doping...Sort Of

    There is an interesting commentary by Phil Whitten on Swim Info website in reaction to statements made by Dick Pound and Sentors John McCain and Jim Bunning about how doping in sports is a serious problem and will be dealt with seriously, but its not criminal. Phil explains why he believes its criminal. You have to be a premium member of the Swimming World website to be able to read this.
    Skip Thompson

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    What I believe is criminal is the organizations we have supported for years that turned their backs to this problem for a long, long time...and when anyone spoke one sentence about their lack of support...they got hammered....as posted in another thread here…..
    Granted...some of these organizations are now taking action against drug use.....but they let this go on for many years....and one can only speculate as to why$
    I commend Phil for his commentary…..Job well done!

    And...on the anniversary of my 1000th post….I could not have picked a better topic to comment on.... if I’d of tried....

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    Very Active Member Matt S's Avatar
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    Small Bone to Pick

    Tom,

    I'm down with most of what you have to say. However, I have one small disagreement. No, I don't think the usual USMS crowd is going to give dopers a free pass in world class swimming; no, I don't believe FINA and the IOC get a free pass in these discussion threads, and I would not agree at all that people who speak up about drugs and the alleged non-serious response to the problem "get hammered" in these threads.

    I would agree that those who level scurilous accusations based on no evidence get a hard time for their conspiracy mongering. The non-evidence cited earlier in this thread is a prime example. Put the shoe on the other foot. Do you want Dreyfusian smear jobs, like the latest cheap shot L'Equipe (aka L'Ecrap) leveled at Lance Armstrong, to be considered sufficient evidence of doping?

    Matt

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    I don't know if they are up to their old tricks or not. Their a authorian society that likes to be on top. In manufactoring, they have pirated US products and undervalue their currency to make Chinese products cheaper. But that doesn't mean that they will cheat in sports. Remember that the USSR didn't cheat in swimming while the East Germans did. I think it might be possible giving their background but like everyone states you can't prove that the chinese swim federation is doing it on a massive level again.t

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    Very Active Member breastroker's Avatar
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    cinc310,
    Do you really believe the USSR did not cheat? What planet are you on? Several Russian swimmers won medals using designer doping made for the Russian army. The drug wasn't on the banned list, the Russian cheats kept their medals!

    And always remember, in China, using banned drugs can still get you a bullet in the head. All their drug cheating is STATE sponsored and has not and will not go away. They kept their medals from the 1988 and 1992 Olympics, and they will cheat in 2008 again.

    Dick Pound is a joke, as is Larfaoui. The only one I respect in this is Phill Whitten, the heads of the main FINA organizations are too political. I exclude Frank, can someone please post that photo of the Chinese womens Olympic team at the USAS convention several years ago, please.
    It's not how fast you swim, it's how fast you slow down.

    For competition breaststroke information visit: http://www.breaststroke.info/

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    Well, you are probably right Wayne. It wasn't as obvious in swimming as weightlifting. I think one Russian swimmer was caught. With East Germany it was very obvious.

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    And always remember, in China, using banned drugs can still get you a bullet in the head. All their drug cheating is STATE sponsored and has not and will not go away
    If that's ture, Chinese is cheating in any sports, not just swimming.
    Leiming

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