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Thread: American Record at Masters Meet

  1. #1
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    American Record at Masters Meet

    I believe history was made yesterday at the Southwest Zone SCM Championships. Read the story here at http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com...news/10403.asp the time was just .08 off the World Record that Fred Bousquet set at the 2004 NCAA Championships the year before he went his historic :18.74 50 Yard Free. What interesting is that Nick did a long morning workout and swam two events (200 Free & 200 IM) before he swam the 50 Meter Free.

    I believe this is the first time a USMS registered master swimmer has set a USA Swimming American Record in a sanctioned USMS masters meet or any USA sanctioned meet. He broke Anthony Ervin's record by .03 that was set at the 2000 NCAA Championships. It will be interesting to see if he will be credited with the record because it was sanctioned only by USMS and not USA swimming according to the swim info article. With our new dual affiliation guidelines it should not be a problem. It does meet the FINA requirements because it was done in a masters meet but unfortuately it was not a FINA World Record but will be a FINA Masters World Record. It will be interesting to see how this stacks up against the World Cup Meets in both the 2005 USA National and 2005 FINA SCM World rankings.

    I happen to witness a swimming performance very similar to this back in 1983 at the USMS Long Course Nationals at the new IUPUI Natatorium. There was a swimmer named Kevin DeForest that swam out of University of Missouri that swam a :22.59 which tied a Robin Leamy performance swam a couple weeks prior at the US Nationals in Clovis, CA in 1983 winning the 50 Free. Kevin missed the World Record held by Robin Leamy at :22.54 by .05 set in 1981 at Brown Deer which was the same meet Mary T is famous for. Kevin was ranked 3rd in the world that year. Kevin DeForest still has the USMS and FINA Masters World record that was set back in 1983 and its quite possibly the oldest USMS pool record standing.

    Judging from Nick Brunelli's swim this past weekend, Kevin's record is in danger of being broken very soon if he happens to enter a USMS LC sanctioned meet. I hope that FINA and USA swimming count this swim as an overall record and not just a masters record. Out of this something crazy could be that you can't set an American Record in a Masters meet only in a USA sanctioned meet and FINA non masters meet. I wonder if anyone ever thought this was possible when swimming USMS and USA swimmers together in a dually sanctioned meet.
    Skip Thompson

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    what an impressive swim

    fyi years ago deforrest trained in austin for a while during the summer

    ande

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    Very Active Member jswim's Avatar
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    That's fabulous!
    I should hope that the record would stand as an overall record. After all, a record is a record, I don't see any sense in separating the two (unless USA swimming is worried about its rep)

    just kidding...


    Congrats to Nick Brunelli!!!!
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    Congrats to Nick. And to think I considered driving up there on Sunday to watch!

    This might not be an easy road for Nick's time to be approved by US Swimming. The meet director, referee, etc., must prove that the meet was run in a similar fashion to a normal USA Swimming meet, i.e. judges watching the turn, official starter, correct length of the pool, meet run officially. I think there are numerous forms to fill out. But I seriously doubt the record will not be approved. We might have to wait until the new year to get a final decision.

    I got this from Part 2 of the USA Swimming rules. As well as the Part 1 section on records.

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    Very Active Member Bob McAdams's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Jeff Commings
    This might not be an easy road for Nick's time to be approved by US Swimming. The meet director, referee, etc., must prove that the meet was run in a similar fashion to a normal USA Swimming meet, i.e. judges watching the turn, official starter, correct length of the pool, meet run officially. I think there are numerous forms to fill out. But I seriously doubt the record will not be approved. We might have to wait until the new year to get a final decision.
    I'm not clear on why this matters. There are a number of organizations in the U.S. that run swimming competitions: USA Swimming, USMS, NCAA, ASA, etc. A USMS record is a USMS record. If it's faster than the record times set in events run by the other organizations, it's also a U.S. record.

    It's a bit like Olympic records. If somebody sets the fastest time that's ever been done for that event in the Olympics, it's an Olympic record. But whether it's a world record depends on whether anyone has set a faster time in that event at a competition other than the Olympics.

    Of course, if you ask an official from USA Swimming what the record time is for the event, they may respond by giving the fastest time that is recognized by USA Swimming. But the question is why anyone who wanted to know the U.S. record (not the USA Swimming record) for the event would do that.


    Bob

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    Active Member Frosty's Avatar
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    "...It does meet the FINA requirements because it was done in a masters meet but unfortuately it was not a FINA World Record but will be a FINA Masters World Record..."

    Nope. Not even a FINA Masters WR, since he isn't 25 yet...even in FINA age.

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    Very Active Member gull's Avatar
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    At least he'll get a Top Ten patch. And if he learns how to quilt, he might even get an article in USMS Swimmer.

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    Very Active Member Sam Perry's Avatar
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    Originally posted by gull80
    ...And if he learns how to quilt, he might even get an article in USMS Swimmer.
    Ok that's one of the funniest things I've read on here in a while!
    These amino acids are awesome, now I need a new Speedo.

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    Frosty:

    Thanks for the clarification and you are correct. Nick turns 25 in 2006 and will be eligible for the 2006 Masters World Championships. Maybe its just as well because I don't know if FINA has a drug substance test procedure after someone breaks a World Record. I know they don't have one when someone breaks a FINA Masters World Record.

    Jeff thanks for the explanation of the record procedure for US swimming. I didn't see anything in there about drug substance testing after breaking the record. I did see the section on out of competition drug testing which I am sure Nick has been tested for substances in the last year since he is world ranked. I did see something generally written in the rule book that stated:

    "The athletes at the competition are subject to drug testing by the US Anti Doping Agency (USADA) and FINA under the in competition drug testing program. Not sure how that gets related to this.

    On page 52 of the USA Swimming Rule Book it states that "Pending record claims properly documented and approved by the National Records Coordinator (which is Jim Kelly) maybe approved and declared effective immediately." It does not say anything about records established at events that are not sponsored by USA swimming. They just talk about National Championships, US Open, any World Cup event sponsored by USA Swimming, and events conducted by FINA.

    I was on the USA Swimming site today and there were no press releases about this pending American Record performance. Also if you go to the meet results on the Arizona website it has a time of :21.38 instead of the :21.18, which was reported in the swim info story yesterday.

    I also noticed that Nick destroyed USMS records in the 100 Free by 3.67, 200 Free by 5.91, and the 200 IM by 8.56 seconds to go along with the 50 Free USMS record.
    Skip Thompson

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    Very Active Member Dominick Aielloeaver's Avatar
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    Record Breaker

    It is to bad, that some sport writer from some news paper, was not alerted to this amazing swimmer and his acclomplishment. It would have given Nick and USMS Some exposure. Because the papers, do not do to much reporting on swimming. But these are my thoughts.

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    Participating Member seabiscuit's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Frank Thompson


    I also noticed that Nick destroyed USMS records in the 100 Free by 3.67, 200 Free by 5.91, and the 200 IM by 8.56 seconds to go along with the 50 Free USMS record.
    48:00 for the 100 free.

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    Very Active Member dorothyrde's Avatar
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    Re: Record Breaker

    Originally posted by Dominick Aielloeaver
    It is to bad, that some sport writer from some news paper, was not alerted to this amazing swimmer and his acclomplishment. It would have given Nick and USMS Some exposure. Because the papers, do not do to much reporting on swimming. But these are my thoughts.
    My experience with the press and swimming......Someone in the swimming community has to write up the article and submit it. Their staff writers usually know little about swimming.

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    Participating Member seabiscuit's Avatar
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    Re: Re: Record Breaker

    Originally posted by dorothyrde
    My experience with the press and swimming......Someone in the swimming community has to write up the article and submit it. Their staff writers usually know little about swimming.
    I can't tell you how many times our local paper refers to the short course pool as *Olympic* size.....and how the kids swam the 100 meter blah blah blah in the recent swim meet.

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    One aspect of Brunelli's awesome swims that has not been discussed here is how fast he swam (within.05 of the world record) while in the midst of heavy training. I believe he was lifting heavy and even worked out the morning of the meet.

    Just this last year I had a similar experience with going fast during heavy training and then only going .01 faster in two events at nationals, fully tapered. I know this phenomenon has happened to many others as well. I recall Jenny Thompson doing a pr several years ago in the midst of very heavy training.

    Are these things just flukes or does the conventional wisdom re tapers need to be reexamined? Do track athletes taper the same way swimmers do? Certainly, if you coach Nick Brunelli you've got to think about adjusting some assumptions.

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    Base

    Depends if you have a base to your training career Rich. Certainly, guys like Simon the Brit can perform similar times as their final NCAA time mid season on few weeks of mid season rest. But you don't see many of these mid season phenomenal times out of people that haven't trained hard ever in their lives. Are there benefits to this strategy.... probably yes in terms of mental confidence and ego. Winning breeds winning. But I doubt that continued season after season of having big mid season tapers will result in total drops equal to swimmers who taper only once a season over a period of several years. Sounds like a better strategy for the older elite or college swimmer who has already developed, created their career training aerobic base and are close to their lifetime peak performances already.


    John Smith

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    I've experienced this
    It doesn't happen often
    But sometimes I'd rip a really fast time in practice or a meet.

    One reason maybe those type of meets have less pressure.
    but I've also swum really fast after lifting weights.

    Ande

    Originally posted by Rich Abrahams
    One aspect of Brunelli's awesome swims that has not been discussed here is how fast he swam (within.05 of the world record) while in the midst of heavy training. I believe he was lifting heavy and even worked out the morning of the meet.

    Just this last year I had a similar experience with going fast during heavy training and then only going .01 faster in two events at nationals, fully tapered. I know this phenomenon has happened to many others as well. I recall Jenny Thompson doing a pr several years ago in the midst of very heavy training.

    Are these things just flukes or does the conventional wisdom re tapers need to be reexamined? Do track athletes taper the same way swimmers do? Certainly, if you coach Nick Brunelli you've got to think about adjusting some assumptions.

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    John, I'm not talking about a mid-season taper. I agree that too many tapers can mess you up. I'm talking about a totally unexpected pr type of performance with zero extra rest. I believe Jenny Thompson had actually lifted the morning of her pr swim.

    On another subject: Red Rocks this Sat.?

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    PRs with no rest

    If you are talking about true PRs with zero rest, they I submit to you that that individual is not broken down and training that hard to begin with.

    Personally, I used to swim mid season 200yd frees in about a high 1:37 and mid 1:38s back in the stone age 80's. My end of year best times ranged between 1:35.8 to 1:36.2 . That was fairly close to PRs mid season for me. I can not see doing a best time off true hard training mid season. It is impossible.


    Red Rocks...... depends on the weather......... whether or not I am up for it........ :-)


    John Smi9th

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    Very Active Member Paul Smith's Avatar
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    JS & Rich......back to the "Rocks" Saturday at 11am, snow or shine!

    Rich......your right about Nick's "taper", he swam 7000m 5 days before the meet then back down the final 4 and lifted 2 days beforehand......bascially he anted to "experiment" this meet and see how this type of "rest" worked out.....not bad I'd say!

    PS: my understanding is tha the UA folks ent full blown 3-4 weeks tapering before the Texas invite......not the same thing as what Nick tried.
    I crack myself up. It is jealousy. It is Boredom. I Did not accomplish enough when I was young, and I hate anybody faster/younger than me.

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    Very Active Member A.K.'s Avatar
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    Another factor most overlook- does the swimmer have alot of body hair.

    You'll find that most swimmers with decent amount of "fur" will do considerably bettter after their taper and shave than a swimmer with minimal coverage.
    Thanks,

    A.K.

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