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Thread: Entry & Catch

  1. #1
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    Entry & Catch

    Recently, I've worked very hard on extending my arm as I put my hand into the water. Now I've started to let my hand sink lower than I used to do. After my hand enters the water it drops about 28 to 32 inches. Then I bend my elbow and line my hand & elbow and begin to push back. this allows me to need only 14 to 16 pulls per 25yd pool.

    I'm 6ft 6in and have very long arms. Everything I've been able to read about entry suggests that this might be too deep. It doesn't significantly slow me down (HA!HA!, Like I got that fast anyway.). Any comments?

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    Very Active Member Matt S's Avatar
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    Good Technique

    Craig,

    You sound like you are doing a very good entry, at least according to the TI school of thought. The classic thinking is that you should extend your hand out as far forward as comfortably possible before entering the water, and start pushing back as soon as you hand is in the water. This makes your stroke longer. TI's criticism of this is that starting your pull with your arm fully extended is putting excess strain on your shoulders muscles (I'm not enough of a physiologist to name specific muscle groups) because they are the only ones you can use in that position. They recommend an earlier entry, letting your hand submerge to the depth you describe, and then start your pull. It is rather like starting a pull up with your body a little higher up, and you can use more muscle groups. The TI argument is that this helps prevent shoulder strain injuries.

    It's a school of thought, clearly not the only one. However, the thinking is far from unanimous that what your are doing is incorrect.

    Matt

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    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Here we go again TI???

    Georges Idea of swimming!!!

    Hand enters at 3 to 5 pounds pressure per square inch, let it drift out 5 to 8 inches off centre to a depth of 8 to 12 inches. The fore arm rotates and comes back to the center line again and goes to the catch at a pressure of 8 to 12 lbs PSI. The catch is the spot in the water when you change the force which moves you forward, it can be at a a depth from 18 to 25 inches below the water some even take it deeper some even closer to the body. When you get to the catch the PSI changes to 23 to 25 PSI and you continue this pressure til you reach the finish on your thigh. So simple it does not have to be thought about. Use the big back muscles and apply these forces using fulcrum action.

    Let the force be with you...

    By the way I am 6'3" and did 11 strokes for 25 m with 2 dolphin kicks from the push off and am as old as dirt.
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

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    Very Active Member thewookiee's Avatar
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    George,

    I gather from your opening comment that you are not a fan of TI. Reading some other comments that a decent number of people on this forum aren't either.
    What is it about TI that you dislike or rather don't agree on? Please understand I am not attacking you or defending them, just general curiosity.
    Thanks!
    John

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    Originally posted by thewookiee
    George,

    I gather from your opening comment that you are not a fan of TI. Reading some other comments that a decent number of people on this forum aren't either.
    What is it about TI that you dislike or rather don't agree on? Please understand I am not attacking you or defending them, just general curiosity.
    Thanks!
    John
    Many people think that swimmign doesn't need a guru. Some times, Mclaughlin comes off as a "I'm the only truth type of guy." I don't necessarily believe that but it gets many peole agitated.

    If I I only allow my hand to go down under 20 inches, I frequently hit my sides as my arm moves backward or can't align my hand and elbow to begin the push back. How low to allow my hand to sink has always been a major problem. I started to wonder recently if maybe the problem wasn't that because I'm so tall, many people don't understand the relationship between long arms and the pull.

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    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    TI explains it well.

    TI is just the way we swim, it is well explained but I have gone through all of these steps all of my life. Being a sprinter until I was 27 most of my races were 50s or 100s I find there is no revelence in TI. After changing to swim long races 10 miles to 33 miles I changed my style as recommended to me by Gus Stager to get the body in the water and let the air in the lungs help you float (I guess that is the bouy that Terry talks about) I started swimming the technique that TI talks about the only difference is the kick I use, I changed it to a lighter 6 beat or a no beat kick in salt water, front loading, front quadrant swimming in 1963. Hey he is making money all I say he has compiled a method to explain what I and others have been doing.
    Last edited by geochuck; September 6th, 2007 at 12:13 AM.
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

  7. #7
    Active Member Dave Chambers's Avatar
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    I cannot stand TI. I get a lot of triathletes coming to squads and they think they know it all because they have watched a TI DVD. How many years does it take to become a coach who has good knowledge and then apply it? Years. TI essentially tells people that they know everything about stroke mechanics in a couple of hours. It is very very frustrating to have such arogance around.

    The thing that annoys me most is the way some of the drills are swam (such as depth of the hand before the catch) and rotation kick but ending up on your back. How is this teaching you core stability in swimming.

    Give me Councilman and Maglischo any day with a qualified swimming coach.
    'Simplicity Leads To Success'

  8. #8
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Dave Chambers
    I cannot stand TI.
    If you want to see what we all think about TI have a look here http://forums.usms.org/showthread.ph...otal+immersion
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

  9. #9
    Active Member Dave Chambers's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link. It was very interesting reading with many different arguements.
    'Simplicity Leads To Success'

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    Re: Entry & Catch

    Quote Originally Posted by geochuck View Post
    Here we go again TI???

    Georges Idea of swimming!!!

    Hand enters at 3 to 5 pounds pressure per square inch, let it drift out 5 to 8 inches off centre to a depth of 8 to 12 inches. The fore arm rotates and comes back to the center line again and goes to the catch at a pressure of 8 to 12 lbs PSI. The catch is the spot in the water when you change the force which moves you forward, it can be at a a depth from 18 to 25 inches below the water some even take it deeper some even closer to the body. When you get to the catch the PSI changes to 23 to 25 PSI and you continue this pressure til you reach the finish on your thigh. So simple it does not have to be thought about. Use the big back muscles and apply these forces using fulcrum action.

    Let the force be with you...

    By the way I am 6'3" and did 11 strokes for 25 m with 2 dolphin kicks from the push off and am as old as dirt.
    George, have you got a picure or video to illustrate it? I read them twice but cannot understand it throughly. Sorry.

  11. #11
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Entry & Catch

    Tree I have made it sound complicated.

    Your hand enters and as it extends forward, it presses down slightly moving off the center line then the hand and forearm rotate and with a little more pressure drops to the catch, then increase the pressure to the finish. The finish is point is different for people that have longer arms or shorter arms, all are not constructed the same.

    Shoulder rotation, some believe it comes from the kick others the hip and I believe it comes from the shoulder.

    As the hand recovers over the top brush your ear with your shoulder.

    I will look through my videos and post the video for you. If I can not find one we leave for Mexico after the weekend and will make some new ones, I have seen some on another site but I don't know if I can post his site or not.
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

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    Re: Entry & Catch

    Quote Originally Posted by geochuck View Post
    Your hand enters and as it extends forward, it presses down slightly moving
    I will look through my videos and post the video for you. If I can not find one we leave for Mexico after the weekend and will make some new ones, I have seen some on another site but I don't know if I can post his site or not.
    That would be great! Thanks, George.

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