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Thread: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

  1. #81
    Very Active Member Donna's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    This is an area I am weak in but am making strides. Since working out with the kids team instead of the masters team I have had more opportunity to do kick sets. In the last few weeks time I have gone from a :38 sec 25 yd kick to a :25 sec 25 yd kick which I did today!

    I am really hoping this will translate to a be a better time for my Nationals 50 free. I am also finding that we actually do sprints in practice, something that was foriegn to my other club. We primarily focused on distance or IM. Lots of long sets.

    Goal for next week to drop to :23 or better.

    Donna

  2. #82
    Very Active Member Shaman's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by ande View Post
    I've written about kicking in Swim Faster Faster
    Kicking fast is the key to swimming fast.
    http://forums.usms.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4229

    You need to
    STOP USING FINS
    STOP saying and believing you can't kick fast


    The big problem is the coach assigns a kick set, the "bad kickers" move to the back of the lane, then proceed to plod through the kick set. (I used to be a bad kicker then I became one of the best kickers on the team.)


    Begin by improving your 25 kicking speed

    Time yourself for
    an all out 25 kick from a dive in streamline position with no board
    find out where you are

    Then time yourself once a week or every other week


    Train and Improve
    Start doing sprint kick sets with lots of rest between each fast kick

    do sets like:
    4 x (3 x 25 swim easy on :45 or 1:00, followed by one 25 FAST kick for time)
    YOU'VE really GOT TO GO FOR IT on the fast kick.
    Pretend it's a LIFE or DEATH MATTER,
    put forth THAT kind of effort.
    Pay attention to your times and work on improving them from one week to the next.
    (Also do half length sprints,

    learn how to:
    1) move your feet fast and
    2) catch and feel water with your feet )

    I swear this WILL WORK
    You'll see remarkable improvements in your kick.

    Also you might not have that great of a toe point
    it helps to stretch your ankles / feet and improve your feet flexibility. generally the more flexible your foot is
    the faster you can kick

    once you have speed then start working on speed endurance
    start doing 50's, 75's and 100's
    ALSO Start learning how to use your new and improved kick when you swim, especially swimming.

    Come up to Austin some time and I'll work with you in person
    or if I ever go down to the coast we can meet at the Aransas Pass pool or where you practice.

    Ande
    How important are big/long feet in having a great kick?

  3. #83
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    don't worry about things you can't change

    ande

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    How important are big/long feet in having a great kick?

  4. #84
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaman View Post
    How important are big/long feet in having a great kick?
    GB's Caitlin McClatchey is reputed to be able to kick 100 LCM in 1:10 and I doubt she has particularly big feet, at least not compared to most men, they might be big by women's standards for all I know, but there are a lot of men who can't kick 100 LCM in 1:10.

  5. #85
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Had a mini breakthrough with my SDK today. Went 21.06 off the wall. This was the first time I did it with one breath and I think this was the main reason I was able to achieve the faster time. Now with a bit more effort and a dive, a sub 20 doesn't look so difficult anymore.

    Syd

  6. #86
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    congratulations on your improvement

    syd's 25 m kick times

    10)
    09)
    08)
    07)
    06)
    05)
    04) 7/20 SDK 21.0
    03) 7/13
    02) july 3rd 23.59; SDK 22.29
    01) June 28th, 2007 24.10
    00) June 20th, 2007 25.84

  7. #87
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Here is a video from the past a great kicker just click on the video http://www.ishof.org/video_archive/s...aine_crapp.htm
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

  8. #88
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    updates? anyone?
    tired of being a sucky kicker?

  9. #89
    Very Active Member nkfrench's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Yep. Sucky and horrible it still is, and it may be getting worse. I am going to ask Coach to videotape me next opportunity. I have been working on my kick for 7 months after a decade of irregular attendance. There are several factors: I have one bad knee (no hamstring strength and very limited knee bend) and I have a lot of loose skin on both legs that goes every which way when I kick which makes my hips/legs hurt. Coach has us do a LOT of drills and kicking; usually he caves and puts fins on me as it's hard for the others to pass me when I get "stuck". In college, it seems like I was a passable kicker but that was "then".

  10. #90
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Today I did two 25 M test kicks

    25 meters SFK 14.1

    25 meters SDK 12.4

    Test your times and post 'em

    Ande

  11. #91
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    I have an update: SDK 25 metres 20:92 and Flutter Kick 25 metres 22:90 but to be honest I don't feel like I am really grabbing that water. Ande, I must admit I feel quite disheartened when I see that 12.4 25m SDK time of yours. I don't know where I am going wrong that I am so far off the mark. I am fiercely competitive and, believe me, it is through no lack of trying. I am not a slouch in the water either: I can go sub 27 for 50m free relatively easily but with my SDK it just feels like I am increasing the frequency of my kick without any major increase in forward propulsion. It feels like I am going more up and down than forward.

    Last night I was watching some Go Swim links posted by George. If you have the time check out this: http://www.goswim.tv/videolist.php# then scroll down until you see : Butterfly - Outside - In Kick and see what you think of this technique. I tried it this afternoon but I am not sure it made any difference. In fact I spent the enitre 1 1/2 hours this afternoon just working on my SDK's and wondering why it felt so ineffectual. I think it has to do with the fact that I am not using my entire body. I use my legs more. Recently I have been doing a lot of butterfly training (up to 1000m a practice) and I am hoping in the long run that this will strengthen my core and hence improve my SDK'ing.

    Another thing I have noticed is that I am faster if I put my hands at my sides. I find if my arms are at my side, my whole body undulates more rhythmically and I get a much better forward propulsion but I am loathe to do this because it would just be impractical in a race. The arms have to be out in the front ready for the breakout stroke.

    What would you say is the single most important aspect to mastering the SDK? Or is it just lots of practice until you find your own way?

    Syd

  12. #92
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    When I use the dolphin, swimming or just kicking my big toes almost touch together at all times. My ankles are relaxed and the toes are pointed in, pidgeon toed the legs are not held tight together but are relaxed. Heels are seperated at times as much as 14 inches.
    Last edited by geochuck; March 23rd, 2008 at 03:57 PM.
    Keep it simple George Park
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  13. #93
    Back is faster than Fly poolraat's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by geochuck View Post
    When I use the dolphin, swimming or just kicking my big toes almost touch together at all times. My ankles are relaxed and the toes are pointed in. Pidgeon toed the legs are not held tight together but are relaxed. Heels are seperated at times as much as 14 inches.
    George, this is something I just discovered this past year. I've also found that a slight inward rotation of the toes during flutter kick adds more drive to the kick. If I had a prior swimming background or a coach, I might have stumbled on this sooner.
    I have entered the snapdragon stage of my life (Part of me has snapped and the rest of me is draggin ).

  14. #94
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    thanks for reporting this

    you asked
    What would you say is the single most important aspect to mastering the SDK?
    Or is it just lots of practice until you find your own way?

    I would need to watch you to see what you are actually doing and offer you specific corrections. Probably your technique or timing isn't quite right.
    correct that and you'd probably make a quantum leap on your 25 time

    When I was in college I preferred to dolphin kick with my hands by my side and SDK felt funny. I wish I would have perfected my SDK back then.

    Also do a 25 free sprint so we can compare your 25 free time to your 25 kicking times
    please report that time.

    make a video of your kick and put it up on youtube

    Quote Originally Posted by Syd View Post
    I have an update:
    SDK 25 metres 20:92 and
    Flutter Kick 25 metres 22:90
    but to be honest I don't feel like I am really grabbing that water. Ande, I must admit I feel quite disheartened when I see that 12.4 25m SDK time of yours. I don't know where I am going wrong that I am so far off the mark. I am fiercely competitive and, believe me, it is through no lack of trying. I am not a slouch in the water either: I can go sub 27 for 50m free relatively easily but with my SDK it just feels like I am increasing the frequency of my kick without any major increase in forward propulsion. It feels like I am going more up and down than forward.

    Last night I was watching some Go Swim links posted by George. If you have the time check out this: http://www.goswim.tv/videolist.php# then scroll down until you see : Butterfly - Outside - In Kick and see what you think of this technique. I tried it this afternoon but I am not sure it made any difference. In fact I spent the enitre 1 1/2 hours this afternoon just working on my SDK's and wondering why it felt so ineffectual. I think it has to do with the fact that I am not using my entire body. I use my legs more. Recently I have been doing a lot of butterfly training (up to 1000m a practice) and I am hoping in the long run that this will strengthen my core and hence improve my SDK'ing.

    Another thing I have noticed is that I am faster if I put my hands at my sides. I find if my arms are at my side, my whole body undulates more rhythmically and I get a much better forward propulsion but I am loathe to do this because it would just be impractical in a race. The arms have to be out in the front ready for the breakout stroke.

    What would you say is the single most important aspect to mastering the SDK? Or is it just lots of practice until you find your own way?

    Syd

  15. #95
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    It sure helps when the toes point in on the down kick on the crawl and the up kick on the backstroke. If the ankles are relaxed during the up beat on crawl the foot flexes back and the toes do not point in. The feet should never be force pointed. It should happen without thinking about it.
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

  16. #96
    Very Active Member 3strokes's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by geochuck View Post
    It sure helps when the toes point in on the down kick on the crawl and the up kick on the backstroke. If the ankles are relaxed during the up beat on crawl the foot flexes back and the toes do not point in. The feet should never be force pointed. It should happen without thinking about it.
    Right on, George. Back (way back) when, I made myself do this, so that the movement of my feet during the down kick (with toes pointed in) ressembled that of a power boat's screw-blade; it did ostensibly and noticeably increase the effectiveness of the kick.
    ..... Where, Oh, where did I last see my swimming suit? Oh well!

  17. #97
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Ande

    I still like my hands at my sides. That first double arm stroke seems to get you to a speed that makes the kick just a little more like we have to do it.

    But when teaching it I have the client hold his arms out front as if he was coming out of a dive or turn, kick 10 to 15 yards, then breakout into swimming full stroke. Of course I dont like any stroke broken down into kicking sets and arms only sets. I do not work with large groups. I only do private and semi-private teaching. These classes are 30, 45 or 60 minutes.
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

  18. #98
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by 3strokes View Post
    Right on, George. Back (way back) when, I made myself do this, so that the movement of my feet during the down kick (with toes pointed in) ressembled that of a power boat's screw-blade; it did ostensibly and noticeably increase the effectiveness of the kick.
    I sure hated this when I had an ingrown toenail on my big toe and it happened to touch the other foot. Real pain.
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

  19. #99
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    I started stretching my ankles after noticing the extra range of motion Phelps was getting during his kick. It helps, but I have to do it for 10-15 min to notice a difference.

    Lots of vigorous kicking with fins might have a similar effect.

  20. #100
    Very Active Member geochuck's Avatar
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    Re: Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

    I have suggested to many to wear speedo fins. I tell them to kick with them on the proper feet and then reverse the fins, put the left fin on the right foot and the left fin on the right foot. This really loosens up the ankles.
    Keep it simple George Park
    Swimsuit Sale http://www.swimdownhill.com/index.html

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