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Thread: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

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    Very Active Member islandsox's Avatar
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    IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    This question has come up offline so I thought I'd post the question to find out the rule about this transitional turn between the IM's back and breast since I no longer do IMs.

    Years ago, a flip turn between back and breast was allowed; it was not the new "freestyle" back turn, a swimmer could touch the wall in backstroke, and then flip over to enter the breastroke. Now I believe more swimmers are backstroking into the wall and open turning into the breaststroke portion of the IM.

    For all of you Im'ers out there, what is now legal: both turns or does a swimmer have to do an "open turn"?

    Donna

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    Very Fetching Rump SwimStud's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    We'll find out on Mar 11th when I flip my backstroke, touchwith feet and push off itno a breast streamline and pullout.



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    Very Active Member FlyQueen's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    The rule is that you must finish each stroke in an IM as you would if the race was ending there. SO you have to finish on your back with one hand touching then you can flip, do the "old school" spin turn OR do an open turn.
    "I don't race to see who is the fastest, I race to see who has the most guts."

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    Back is faster than Fly poolraat's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Either turn is legal as long as the finish to the backstroke portion is finished on the back. Here is the rule:

    101.5 INDIVIDUAL MEDLEY — ....
    .3 Turns
    A Intermediate turns within each stroke shall conform to the turn rules for that stroke.
    B The turns when changing from one stroke to another shall conform to the finish rules for the stroke just completed, and shall be as follows:

    (1) Butterfly to backstroke — The swimmer must touch as described in 101.2.5. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner, but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the back when the swimmer leaves the wall.

    (2) Backstroke to breaststroke — The swimmer must touch the wall while on the back. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the breast when the swimmer leaves the wall and the prescribed breaststroke form must be attained prior to the first arm stroke.

    (3) Breaststroke to freestyle — The swimmer must touch as described in 101.1.4. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner.


    Quote Originally Posted by islandsox View Post
    This question has come up offline so I thought I'd post the question to find out the rule about this transitional turn between the IM's back and breast since I no longer do IMs.

    Years ago, a flip turn between back and breast was allowed; it was not the new "freestyle" back turn, a swimmer could touch the wall in backstroke, and then flip over to enter the breastroke. Now I believe more swimmers are backstroking into the wall and open turning into the breaststroke portion of the IM.

    For all of you Im'ers out there, what is now legal: both turns or does a swimmer have to do an "open turn"?

    Donna
    Last edited by poolraat; February 25th, 2007 at 09:15 PM.
    I have entered the snapdragon stage of my life (Part of me has snapped and the rest of me is draggin ).

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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    So you can't do the freestyle back turn in an IM then?



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    Very Active Member Redbird Alum's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Swimstud -

    You are correct. You must touch while still on your back.


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    Very Active Member isobel's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Well, you can do the "freestyle" turn in backstroke if you are doing the 400 IM; you just can't do it in the transition from the last leg of the backstroke to the first leg of the breaststroke.

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    Very Active Member AnnG's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    I swim all the IM's. Depending on the length I do either a flip or an open turn. I really need the air in the 400 IM, for the 100 and the 200 its less important. I wish I could master Phelps' back/breast turn. I have watched that video snip at least 1000 times (seriously) trying to figure it out and I have yet to duplicate it in the pool. First, he does it so fast its hard to see the mechanics, second, I can't seem to place my hand on the wall properly. On the last backstroke stroke, he crosses the hand over his head to the opposite side of his body, touches AND gets a big breath just like an open turn, but then he flips sideways and pushes off on his stomach nice and deep and ready for his breaststroke pullout. I can sorta see what he is doing but I can't actually do it myself in the pool! It's incredibly fast.

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    Very Active Member dorothyrde's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Ann, I had a coach try to teach me Phelp's turn....and I think I drank half the pool. The kids learn it fairly easily, as kid's do, but to learn it as an adult is hard.

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    Very Active Member tjburk's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    I have found the easiest way to learn it is to turn using the same hand evertime until you get used to it.....then try switching hands. I use the same hand everytime in a race though....get to know your stroke count and try using the same hand everytime. Practice, practice, practice!!!!
    "Your body will go places your mind never thought it would go, as long as you are mentally tough enough to push it, drag it or carry it there." Tracy A. Burkholder

    "If it is to be......it is up to me!" Author unknown.... got it off the wall at Westminster School in Atlanta.



    Breaststroke - For the swimmer who finds the other strokes too easy!!!!!!

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    Very Active Member swimr4life's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Quote Originally Posted by AnnG View Post
    I wish I could master Phelps' back/breast turn. I have watched that video snip at least 1000 times (seriously) trying to figure it out and I have yet to duplicate it in the pool. First, he does it so fast its hard to see the mechanics, second, I can't seem to place my hand on the wall properly. On the last backstroke stroke, he crosses the hand over his head to the opposite side of his body, touches AND gets a big breath just like an open turn, but then he flips sideways and pushes off on his stomach nice and deep and ready for his breaststroke pullout. I can sorta see what he is doing but I can't actually do it myself in the pool! It's incredibly fast.

    MEE TOO! I've watched it so many times! I've tried to duplicate it and can't get it right. It is amazing and very fast!
    My goal is to die young as late as possible!

    My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am.

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    Very Active Member blainesapprentice's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Where is this Phelps video link?
    Nothing to it but to do it

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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Quote Originally Posted by blainesapprentice View Post
    Where is this Phelps video link?
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=WeL_HmMsbWI

    Morgan when you have perfected it...hold a clinic



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    Very Active Member knelson's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Quote Originally Posted by AnnG View Post
    On the last backstroke stroke, he crosses the hand over his head to the opposite side of his body, touches AND gets a big breath just like an open turn, but then he flips sideways and pushes off on his stomach nice and deep and ready for his breaststroke pullout.
    I don't think he's crossing his arm over. If you watch closely (I guess you'll need to watch a 1,001st or 1,002nd time ) his arm touches without crossing over then he immediately drops the opposite shoulder and flips.

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    Very Active Member swimr4life's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    I agree with knelson. He just does it so quick, it looks like he crosses over. He just drops the shoulder on the side he turns towards.
    My goal is to die young as late as possible!

    My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am.

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    Very Active Member LindsayNB's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    There are several videos of the back-breast turn that might make it easier to make out what is going on than the Phelps video. The underwater ones in particular:

    http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=swimee

    Is there any way to view videos from youtube frame by frame or in slow motion?

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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Quote Originally Posted by LindsayNB View Post
    There are several videos of the back-breast turn that might make it easier to make out what is going on than the Phelps video. The underwater ones in particular:

    http://youtube.com/profile_videos?user=swimee

    Is there any way to view videos from youtube frame by frame or in slow motion?
    Lindsay great link!
    I'll be trying that tonight.



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    Very Active Member TRYM_Swimmer's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    From what I can make out, it seems they are beginning to roll to the opposite side of the arm that's touching the wall and then doing a sideways turn with a half twist. That could be dangerous; if you roll too far over, you will get DQ'd.

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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Quote Originally Posted by TRYM_Swimmer View Post
    From what I can make out, it seems they are beginning to roll to the opposite side of the arm that's touching the wall and then doing a sideways turn with a half twist. That could be dangerous; if you roll too far over, you will get DQ'd.
    You just can't go past vertical prior to touch right?



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    Very Active Member swimr4life's Avatar
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    Re: IM Transition turn btween back and breast

    Quote Originally Posted by TRYM_Swimmer View Post
    From what I can make out, it seems they are beginning to roll to the opposite side of the arm that's touching the wall and then doing a sideways turn with a half twist. That could be dangerous; if you roll too far over, you will get DQ'd.
    Yes....I thought the same thing. you would definitely have to practice the timing on this turn a lot before doing it in a meet!
    My goal is to die young as late as possible!

    My goal in life is to be as good of a person my dog already thinks I am.

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