Number of Entries for Hawaii

[michael martin]

Any idea how many entries there are for Short Course Nationals in Hawaii?

[Janet Renner]

We will have the official count out shortly.

Janet Renner
Co-Meet Director

[matysekj]

1,101 is the official count as of today.

[croberts]

How does that compare to nationals held on the mainland?

[michaelmoore]

If everyone attends it will be the smallest nationals since 1982.

The last ten years

2001 - Santa Clara - 1850
2000 - Indianapolis - 1390 (Indianapolis took over after another venue could not make it).
1999 - Santa Clara 2060
1998 - Indianapolis 1738
1997 - Federal Way 1438
1996 - Cupertino - 2048
1995 - Ft Lauderdale 1992
1994 - Tempe - 1912
1993 - Santa Clara 2055
1992 - Ft Lauderdale - 1992

michael

[strong440]

Too bad there ain't ten more! And forgive me, please, but the burning question is, "Will it still be the smallest if everyone does NOT attend"?

[Peter Cruise]

It does seem like a low number, but it will be interesting to see if the number of records broken assumes the same ratio compared to other, better attended meets. Any bets?
On another statistical front, what were the odds against 3 of the top 4 seeds in mens 40-44 100IM all sharing the surname of Smith? Perhaps we should stage a mythical nationals with common surnames competing against each other as teams...

[GoRedFoxes]

Hmmmm, think of this, if it weren't for the 109 swimmers from the HIMA (Hawaii Masters), the number would be 992. 10% of the athletes are Hawaiian Masters. I'll give 3:1 odds on which team is going to win this years Nationals. Is HIMA considered a Large Team category?

I'm always thinking math, can't help it.

Joe

[Robin Parisi]

The original question in this thread spoke in terms of entries, not entrants (the 1,101 refers to entrants). I notice that in my age group, women 45-49, in the six events that I'm swimming, the total number of swims (assuming no scratches) will be 15 more than in those same events at Santa Clara. I tried to compare total number of entrants in my age group, but the data from prior years did not have a sort function that shows all entrants in a specific age group (as this year's data does). It may be that the great travel distance has resulted in a greater proportion of the attending swimmers being those who qualify to swim six events, or a greater proportion being those who, in middle age, can better afford the travel (I also notice that the highest attendance numbers peak out for women in the 35-39 age group, with 81 entrants, and for the men in the 40-44 age group, with 89 entrants). More manipulation of the statistics would be useful before drawing conclusions about the meaning of the low number of entrants.

[GoRedFoxes]

Excellent point Robin, I would imagine that such distance to travel would keep the 'non qualifying' swimmers away. There's been much talk about that in the past, wheter or not to continue the 3 event rule. Could this be the answer?

Also, great point about the affordability/age factor. Notice, some events have no 19-24yr entrants (at least mens). I hate to bring this word up, but I have gotten it thrown at me... elite? Or what Al Gore would refer to, the top 5 percent.

Joe

[Philip Arcuni]

Despite being the most popular age group, and the amazing number of fast Smiths, the depth in the 40-44 mens events is not what it was last year. I can name several top-level swimmers in that age group alone that are not attending, and who regularly attend nationals.

But, I am looking forward to a less-crowded, perhaps more intimate, meet in a beautiful place. The fact that I have a chance to place well in some events gives me even more to anticipate.

I suspect the lack of swimmers at the meet will have the greatest effect on the relays.

[HLClark]

Janet (or anyone else...),

How do the timelines look for each day? How do they compare with previous nationals that had twice the entrants? My concern is that the meet may run too fast and swimmers may not get enough rest between events. Some may already plan on scratching events which would make the timelines even shorter. Could the meet be run in just one pool, with the longer events (400s & up) run in two?

Henry Clark

[Peter Cruise]

There's an idea for a new thread..."should we find a way for Nationals to run longer"(!).

[Matt S]

A number of folks have pointed out that this year's SC Nationals will be different from past years'. There has been some speculation as to why, and what those differences mean.

Just a thought: accept the fact that this meet in Hawaii is going to be different. (Go ahead. I'll just listen to elevator music while you go through whatever 4 step process you feel you need...[Sailing..., take me away... to where I'm going...])

Back already? Tell yourself that the meet will not be in Hawaii again for several more years. Now ask yourself this question: is it necessarily bad that this one time the meet is different? If your answer to this question is yes (Excellent! Self discovery is just around the corner!), look inside and see if you can discern what are your assumptions or values that cause you to feel this way.

Hey, your feelings are your own, and you're entitled to have them regardless of what they are. But, you might like to know more about them.

Just a thought...

Matt

[Philip Arcuni]

I'm not sure what you are implying here, Matt. One way the meet is 'different' is that it has only slightly more than half of the normal attendence. The assumption (but not a proven one) is that significant numbers of swimmers were discouraged because of the time/cost required to attend the meet.

This is not good if you think a primary goal of the meet is to get as good a competition at the top levels as possible. It is also not good if you think a primary purpose of the meet is to get swimmers from all over the country to meet, discuss shared interests, gossip, and otherwise socialize. It is also not good if a purpose of the meet is to include significant numbers of the swimmers that do not make the cutoff times, as they are probably the ones most easily discouraged from attending. If relays are your thing, the depth of the relay events will probably be weak. Most of the top ten times last year were swum at the national meet; if fewer swimmers are at that meet, will the top ten times be as competitive?

It is especially not good if you are the one who could not afford the flight or the required week off from work, and can not attend the meet. Maybe this was your special year, where you could have done especially well?

Of course, the most significant way the meet is 'different' is that it is in Hawaii (and not Cleveland ). That makes it a great place to combine a meet and a vacation. It is also good because it makes it easier for our Hawaii swimmers to attend a national meet. All meets have a regional bias, but since the Hawaii region is smaller than the regions in the mainland, it will be a fairer meet for those mainland teams that aspire to national championships.

Personally, I am glad the meet is in Hawaii. It probably won't be back there for a long time, and I will take advantage of that unique opportunity. It isn't too expensive to fly from California, and I have saved up my vacation days, and recruited my inlaws to babysit.

[matysekj]

The roster and psych sheets have been updated with a number of corrections. After finding a lost swimmer's data, the total number of swimmers is now at 1102.

The estimated timelines will be posted when they are finalized. It will probably be some time this weekend. I don't believe there is any chance of changing anything that was in the provided in official meet information - especially the number of pools used for competition. Yes, the meet will be finished earlier than usual each day, but what better location is there to have more time to yourself after an earlier end of the days events? I wouldn't worry too much about the meet going too fast. The recent Colonies Zone meet had 420 swimmers in 2 pools for a 3-day meet. Saturday's events were all done by noon. The Hawaii meet has about 2.5 times as many swimmers, so it should take longer than that each day, even though the meet is spread out over 4 days.

[Matt S]

Phil,

You understood very well what I was trying to say. Every meet is different, and each individual has to decide whether the net effect of the differences is good or bad. But, don't assume all "right thinking" people will reach the same conclusion.

I guess I was a little weary of some of the posts in this discussion thread, and others, that seem to suggest having Nationals in Hawaii should never be allowed because it makes THEIR attendance more difficult or expensive. My pat riposte has been "what about the Hawaiian swimmers?" So, I wanted to explore that theme a little more.

Matt

[Sally Dillon]

Regarding the meet being so "small" - I've recently returned from New Zealand and the World Championships. It was a "small" meet too - fewer than 1/2 of the swimmers that attended in Munich 2 years ago. What a joy it was to be done while it was still daylight! We didn't even start competition until 9 AM each day. Boy was that great! And what a joy it was to have a record 105 world records set (previous record is 95 I believe). "Small" certainly didn't affect the quality of the meet! We had a terrific experience (if you don't count the unfortunate problems with the open water event timing).

I am against trying to make the meet run slower by running only one course. Let's be done early and have time to enjoy Hawaii. The meet was arranged to be mid-week to allow participants to travel the distance and enjoy a vacation so lets make the most of it. Don't forget your sunscreen, sunglasses, mask and snorkle!

I'll see you there!

[GoRedFoxes]

Ouch, that hurt.
Anyway, any teachers out there want to chime in as to trying to get time off from school? One day, yes, two? is pushing it. I do believe it was a bad idea to have Nats in Hawaii, and I'm not shy about talking about it. And it's not just about me, not being able to go. It's a common feeling among my team, and many other swimmers I talk to. I guess, in today's "feel good" society, it's not polite to talk about or point out 'bad' ideas. Sorry.

Joe

[HLClark]

Thanks for the replies to my post.

Here at Texas A&M University, we've hosted many (USA Swimming, high school and College) championship meets. The timelines and meet sizes are always big topics for discussion---too fast, too slow, too big, too small....you name it. I'm (relatively) new to Masters Swimming and wanted to find out some opinions about the timeline. The USMS Discussion Forum appears to be a great resource.

The Texas A&M swimmers and coaches that have trained in Honolulu all have great things to say about the facility, the people and the sites.

I'm looking forward to doing it all. See you in Hawaii.

Henry Clark